Yeah, a smallish one. About 20,000 men. As I recall they were caught a bit flat-footed and only one or two units really put up any serious resistance against what was essentially an overwhelming force ( the Iraqi invasion force was roughly 120,000 ). A few Kuwaiti aircraft managed to get aloft and hit Iraqi armored columns before their airfields were lost and about 7,000 troops and 40 tanks, plus some aircraft managed to retreat into Saudi Arabia.
Brutus, you are a stupid cunt.
Collunsbury, keep it up.
Why? It’s more interesting than the OP.
Heh Heh Heh… Coll my good man, I spent 3 hours typing a most eloquent debate with you regarding some issues we discussed in your wonderful thread, and at the end of it, I threw in a bit of a sly dig at your style - primarily just as a bit of mental tennis designed to get a bit of rise out of you - but hey! Why bother? Your post above displayed just the right amount of self deprecation to earn yourself being “let off the hook” as it were!
I respect your intellect immensely old chap. Here’s hoping one day the respect will be reciprocal - but I won’t give up trying! 
I think I went to high school with Brutus.
At least he reminds me very much of a young man that proudly pronounced at 17, " I know everything I need to know already."
Of course no reasonable human being would attempt to study another culture’s religion in order to better understand the workings of that society.
I, for one, would be very interested in a list of reading materials on the Middle East, Collounsbury.
Gotcha.
Oh don’t whinge on like an idiot, this is the pit and that was clearly some stylistic ranting at Brutus.
As for Fenris, … well you didn’t have to read now did you?
Shame on you, Fenris! [c]Collounsbury** and** Tamerlane** have done more to eradicate ignorance about MidEast geopolitics, culture, and religion than a battalion of Fox News dittoheads. (Nore re: jerkingoff to Fox News–there is one really hot reporter, Mike something, who has the massive build and neck of a pro bodybuilder. WOOF! He’s a reason to whack off to the news. . . ) Between Collounsbury’s posts and Bernard Lewis’s books, (right now I’m reading The Crisis of Islam), I feel I’ve gotten at least a minimal education in MidEast history and affairs. Please keep it up.
Note to Zenster
While your post was well-meant, skin color has nothing to do with the issue. The people we’re fighting are the same color as you and I are, and it’s foolish to even bring skin color up as a divider in this conflict. Islam is a universal religion for all people of all colors and races.
Clealry however gobear is catching my disease which prevents me from coding propery or proofing.
Incurable I am afraid, so we will have to comiserate, although I am afraid we will have to ogle different newscasters. Oddly Hala of CNN is in town, perhaps I can wrangle that, if she is bored enough.
Problem is that you’ve been equally dismissive of people who are educated about these matters but don’t happen to share your viewpoint, e.g. Danial Pipes. So essentially, Brutus is correct - your viewpoint is the correct one, and you expect everyone to educate themselves from you or people on your approved reading list, i.e. people who share your viewpoint to a large degree.
Which is not to contradict those who have claimed that you add a lot to this board on the subject - in this land of the blind you are one of several one-eyed kings, and it’s nice to have some that will (sometimes) answer questions. But there are other valid sources of information out there, some of whom might actually not share your viewpoint. Accept it.
Three points:[ol][li]I have great respect for knowledge in general, and Collounsbury’s knowledge of Arab culture in particular. He is an asset to this board.[] I am sympathetic to Collounsbury’s complaint, although it is not unique. Posters, pundits and politicians pontificate prodigiously, but without profundity. E.g., as an actuary, I cringed when Al Gore, Tom Daschle, and Paul Krugman (who knows better) harped on the non-existent “Social Security Lockbox”.[]It’s important to distinguish between two types of knowledge. Knowledge of how Arab society actually works today is highly valuable. Knowledge of how it came to work that way is less valuable, albeit interesting and worth knowing. [/li]
One reason is that causes are conjectural, whereas actual behavior is real. Psychoanalysis has the same problem. One can conclude that someone’s character was molded by certain childhood events, but how can one be sure they’re right?
Secondly, there’s a human tendency for each of us to believe that the knowledge we possess is particularly valuable. So, those who know the Koran may see it as an essential basis for understanding the culture of Muslim countries. Yet, are critics of the United States dinged for lack of knowledge of the Old and New Testaments?
A third reason is that the causes don’t necessarily lead to solutions. E.g., even if the words of the Koran somehow helped create a culture where suicide bombings are encouraged, how would it help us to know that? We can’t change the Koran. [/ol]
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by IzzyR *
Problem is that you’ve been equally dismissive of people who are educated about these matters but don’t happen to share your viewpoint, e.g. Danial Pipes. So essentially, Brutus is correct - your viewpoint is the correct one, and you expect everyone to educate themselves from you or people on your approved reading list, i.e. people who share your viewpoint to a large degree.
[/quote
Quite the contrary Izzy my man, I am not equally dismissive of all who do not share my viewpoint.
Let us take Bernard Lewis, I actually disagree with Lewis on numerous points, above all in regards to his present focused analyses. However, I respect Lewis as he is clealry well learned and even when disagreeing with him, I always feel he arrived at his analysis fairly.
I frequently recommend Lewis here, althogh the attentive reader will have noted the caveats I have thrown in, indicating in fact I do not fully agree with him on substantive issues.
However, Pipes I am contemptous of for some of the same reasons I am contemptous of Brutus. He is an ideologue how lets his ideology drive his analysis (we are all of course framed by our understanding of the world, so I will allow there are degrees here). Further Pipes frequently aggressivley and dishonestly attacks the MENA academic community for ideological reasons.
I have argued this point in the past and lack the time to go over it again, I will then simply draw readers attention to the issue in re the Islamic Comintern claims Pipes made in the National Review back in the early 1990s, and the dishonest way he has spun it since.
That is the source of my disregard for Pipes, not that he disagrees with me.
Of course, given your skills in critical reading I should not think you would have followed this.
I ** have ** you ignorant uncritical git, what I do not give a pass on is ideologically driven rubbish, whatever your tastes in that may be. Thus, as noted above, I recommend Lewis despite my disagreements with him. This only off the top of my head.
Very good, must be off, do keep my hotseat warm for me.
Coll:
You had me the whole way, than you lost me with this:
If you’re going to make overgeneralizations like that, it’s hard to take your pleas for informed restraint seriously.
That’s true. But they can tell us what purported solutions are not feasible, however much we might wish that they were.
I have to agree with the OP. I have been talking with a few freinds of mine Two Iranians one Iraqi who left after the 8 years war, they have some interesting insights and prejudices that are really telling. I have done some study in the area and its recent (19th and 20th century) history.
That small smidgen of knowledge has made me a little more than annoyed at the misinformation and assumptions about these people that the press and many have accidentally or diliberately spread.
There is a strange double standard going on where they [those who don’t really understand the region] will make assertations about Iraqi motivations based on their own experience and culture and yet if something odd or occurs and they wish to ignore some basic human attitudes (Love of family or protection of ones children) they shrug it off with a “well they aren’t like us” or “they don’t value life like we do.”
On a recent post I had someone tell me that as soon as the Marines enter Baghdad the Iraqis will drop their weapons. When pressed into where the insight came from the person replied that he was “thinking member of the United States” a nation who had a history of fighting against tyrants. I neglected to mention it also had a history or helping replace democratically elected leaders with Tyrants as well but that person also admitted they had no insight about the region, except some Zen analogy.
Well I guess that wraps it up the war will be over by tomorrow.
Lord save me from Loonies.
Well said, december.
Now there’s something I don’t say everyday.
The question itself shows a lack of knowledge of the subject. Theere is no parallell between the Qu’ran and the Bible becausde Western society long ago developed a separation of civil governemtn from religion, as exemplified by the SOCAS cases broguth before the Supreme Court. Westen secularism is exemplified by Jesus’s admonition, “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and render unto God what is God’s,” but no such division exists in the Islamic world. Islam is not merely a religion but the prevailing laegal and social structure of society. In Islam, religious and political authority are intermingled, which is one of the reason that so many of the secular leaders of Muslim nations are seen as illegitimate or worse, apostates, by their citizens.
Moreover, the Bible is a collection of books written by many authors over a period spanning several centuries, each open to many possible interpretations. The Qu’ran, by contrast, is one book which Muslims believe to contain God’s complete plan for every aspect of life, touching on how you wash yourself, how you work, how you pray, in short, a total guide to conforming to God’s will.
Islam is more than a religion; it is a political identity as well that in many ways transcends other loyaities.
Zenster: Who’s to say that Brutus didn’t lift the name from a Popeye cartoon? I’m leaning towards that theory instead of one that would imply some actual education of the person sporting the moniker here.
I know you addressed this to someone else; however, I feel the need to answer for me so I can tie-in with the latter portion of your posting later in this one.
[sup]1[/sup]I don’t understand Arabic; however, I believe I do understand the few interpretations of the Quran I’ve read, said interpretations being published in English.
[sup]2[/sup]Absolutely! My favourite one is “Do you say of God what you know not?” I’ll get back to this in a moment.
[sup]3[/sup]Many times! You see, unlike bigots, I tend to not rule out someone as a friend based on religion, skin colour, national origin, etc.
Exactly! The BiQ (bigot in question) is upset at something he’s already prejudiced against. And the bit about not caring about the Quran proves he doesn’t want to release any of the prejudices he holds. The OP in this thread is essentially expounding on the bit of the Quran I just quoted, but instead of saying, “Do you say of God what you know not?”, he’s saying, “Don’t talk about Islam/Mideast/whatever you know nothing about like you’re a freaking authority!” Come to think of it, that’s been my point on a number of occasions here.
Collounsbury writes:
I was going to raise Bernard Lewis. I’m part way through his odd and sometimes poorly written “What Went Wrong? The Clash Between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East”.
I am not familiar with the opinions you’re referring to in Great Debates. But if Lewis can draw long bows, and be nonetheless a reknown expert on the subject of the history of Islam, then you should be forgiving of the average punter.