You have opinions on the Middle East. You consider them well-informed and valid. I often agree with you. But the last I checked, no one died and left you God.
It is possible, in other words, to disagree with you, even on a matter relating to the Middle East, and not be a drooling, uninformed idiot. And this condescending snarkiness that anyone who refuses to kowtow to you as if you held the inside scoop from God Almighty is necessarily a knave and a fool is not justified.
You aren’t God. You aren’t even Jesus Christ. Come to think of it, you aren’t even Muhammed or the Mah’di.
You’re posting your opinion on a messageboard, not issuing fatwas to the unwashed. Either get used to not being automatically the Final Word, or shut the fuck up.
I think a minority of people in the United States have bothered to educate themselves about the arab world, myself included. I also think that Americans are a fairly insular people and don’t see the point of trying to understand what doesn’t affect them directly.
Aren’t there reports showing that compared to other countries, our students don’t know diddly about geography- let alone the cultures of those countires. Others often take this for arrogance or stupidity. I think it may be apathy, this disconnect with the rest of the world.
So Scylla I don’t think that Collounsbury’s jibe about the novelty of American’s informing themselves is that gross a generalization. I don’t have any cites that compare U.S. education to other countries, but I have a feeling we’re not on top.
Speaking of educating ourselves, has anyone read Queen Noor’s book? A good place to start?
To the contrary, you frequently take care to note that you do not recommend Lewis’ works on current issues. And IIRC you generally couch that in terms of critique of his analysis rather than his conclusions (certainly, I don’t remember him being used as a source of challenge to your Supreme Wisdom), although as noted, with you these are essentially the same, and it is not surprising that you use them interchangeably.
Whatever. So IOW, you vehemently disagree with his opinions, but that is unconnected with your contempt - it just happens coincidently that you have found him to be an ideologue. OK.
Strange, isn’t it, that there are two main areas to which you lay claim to expertise on these boards, and on both of these, it just turns out that all whose positions are opposed to your own are ignorant, ideologues, lack critical thinking/reading ability etc. etc. etc. On both of these topics you’ve felt compelled to open Pit threads to address that puzzling question of how it is that people have simply just failed to see how incredibly right you are despite your patiently pointing this out to them. But it’s not you. No, not at all.
Can December start a thread? December could consistently mark the point between absurdly oversimplifying and making things needlessly complex. Without such guidelines, I’m afraid, people will continue to spend all their time at the far end of the spectrum.
Don’t you think, Shodan, that it must be tiresome for Collounsbury to have to deal with being contradicted by grossly uninformed people who are merely airing their prejudices? Sure, it’s possible to disagree with him, but it is very difficult to do so with as much knowledge of MENA language, history, politics, and oersonalities as Collounsbury possesses.
Do you speak, read, and write Arabic? Collounsbury does.
Do you work with the economic and political decisionmakers of the MENA region? Collounsbury does.
Are you well-versed in the diplomatic and political analyses of the region? Collounsbury is.
Do you live and work in the MENA region? Collounsbury does.
Face it: **Collounsbury **, prickly personality and all, is far and away the most learned authority on MENA issues here, surpassing even Tamerlane and Istara (no offense, y’all.) If you are going to prove him wrong in a debate, you had best bring your A game and have some damned good cites at your fingertips.
I happen to like Bernard Lewis, though I confess I have read more of his stuff on medieval Islam than on modern. The fact that Edward Said excoriates him is, in my opinion, also a plus.
So in the interests of educating myself, what are your (Collounsbury’s and anyone else’s) big objections to his commentaries on the modern Middle East?
I’m fine with his commentaries, they have been far more informative than the shrill polemics that have saturated GD lately.
I just wish there were more like him so we could get different viewpoints instead of the same absolute “right, wrong and naive” handed down from on high each time. (Sorry C)
I am sure it must be. I am also sure that not everyone who disagrees with him are “grossly uninformed” or “merely airing their prejudices”. And I, for one, am not willing to assume that simply holding a different point of view is proof conclusive that another poster is an idiot.
Collounsbury may well be an expert. But arguments based on “I think so, and I am an expert!” are no stronger than any other argument from authority.
And when he goes on to post to the effect of “And by the way, you’re an ignorant fuckwad for daring to question me” leads me to conclude that perhaps his expertise is not as deep as he thinks. In my experience, the genuinely knowledgeable expert is aware that ambiguities can exist in any subject area.
If he cares to insert his no-doubt well-informed opinion, of course he would be welcome. But I will reserve for myself the right to decide whether or not that settles things.
Point taken, Shodan, and I agree that merely saying, “Iam an authority, shut up” is no answer to an argument, but see what he has to put up with.
In this thread, one can find examples of the incredibly ignorant attitudes spouted by people who know dick about the issues:
or this gem:
(Sorry, one has to be true to his attempts to understand reality.)
(And sorry, that I found it necessary to write that last sentence.) **
[/QUOTE]
Posts that make assertions about the Qu’ran and Islam that are free of corroborating cites and full of inflammatory rhetoric. I am certainly no friend to religion, but I sure as hell intend to criticize Islam for what it is and not for what I imagine it to be, although knowing the difference can be tricky.
Really, there’s no excuse for people to continue to parade their ignorance of other cultures and religions as some badge of patriotism. Knowledge is never wasted, and even if you detest Islam and all its works, you ought at least hate it for what it says, not for what you think it says.
Anyone who wants to know what the Qu’ran actually says can look it up here.
In the name of God, the all-Merciful, the all-Compassionate.
But a couple of other gems pulled from the same thread to which you linked:
And:
And, of course:
It isn’t just the Middle East or Islam that is the subject of posts that are not carefully thought thru. Crap comes into this messageboard from all sides.
And you and I would agree, I think, that simply saying, “I know these people, and it just isn’t like that” does almost no good at all. And saying, “You obviously lack the capability for rational thought, and no one has any worthwhile thoughts to express but me!” does active harm.
I was wondering how long it would be before Collounsbury posted a Pit thread; a whole week! Amazing!
(I just wanted to stick my head in here and put in another request for a MENA recommended reading list, although I still haven’t finished the last 2 books I bought a few months ago, one of which was recommended jointly by Tamerlane and **Collounsbury. ** Maybe we could start a campaign to make it a sticky in Café Society, once it’s completed.)
As for the point of all of this… I love the boards because there is a large cross section of intelligent people with varying knowledge. I get to read things, and decide for myself who has things to say that can broaden my horizons, and who can’t. I don’t have to attack anyone that is clearly a nitwit, I just don’t read them anymore. And the discussions can raise really interesting things that I can then research and form my own opinions on. I love Collunsbury’s input on the Middle East. I think he has proven that he has a perspective that is valuable in the search for understanding.
