I like my women -> ? Who is the next top waddle?

In My Humble Opinion
21

Here’s my problem. It may sound mean. I don’t care.

Tyra Banks is gorgeous. Tyra, whether she 130 or 160, has a beautiful face. So when she’s a bit chunkier, she’s a stunner who’s a little bit chunky. When she’s thinner (and Tyra’s never been scary thin), she’s a supermodel.

Now, I think it’s terrifying when women who have a face like they just walked into a wall go on and on about the “pressure to conform to beauty standards”. Hon, you could have a body like Adriana Lima, and it wouldn’t help. You’re wasting your time - yes, you should be in shape because being healthy is good. But wasting hours at the gym in your abs, legs and butt class to have a model body isn’t going to help your train wreck face.

Also, to the women I work with constantly complaining about how it’s impossible to lose the last five and get a perfectly flat stomach - what are you so worried about? Like Sports Illustrated might refuse to let you on their next cover? You’re a married 30-something women who works in an office. Again, you’re fit, and that’s good. Can’t you do something like, oh I don’t know, work hard so you can take pride in your job, instead of obsessing over something that just doesn’t matter?

I’m a girl. I’ve spent a lot of time worrying about my weight. Then I realised, dammit, I’m not a fatso, I’m slender with an excellent body fat percentage, I work out 5 times a week and eat a vegetarian diet, and I. AM. HEALTHY. AND. HAVE. GREAT. HAIR. Also, I’m not a model, so it doesn’t really fucking matter anyway.

But whew, my point is: pretty girls who make their money from being pretty have every right to worry about their weight. Pretty girls who have made a ton of money already, like T, can feel free to let themselves go a little, because why not? And ugly girls, sorry, are wasting their time fretting about “the perfect body”. Maybe they could do something crazy, like work on “being a good person”.

22

[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
Well there’s no question beauty standards for women are impossibly high these days. Personally, I think I have a gorgeous body. I’m 5’2’’ and a size 12, very hippy and busty… for a long time I believed I really must be ugly, because society does not worship women who look like me. But when I’m standing around naked at home, I’m like, “Damn… what’s wrong with the world? Who would not want to hit that?” I wish, I truly wish, more women could feel this way, and believe they are beautiful regardless of what some dumbass frat kid or the mass media thinks. I love me, my husband loves me… and in my little universe, those are the only two people whose opinion matters.
[/QUOTE]

We’re talking about fashion models though, not regular people. The whole point of a model is to be a hanger to display clothes. Models have been extremely thin for years and years. It’s no different now than it was 40-50 years ago.

23

I thought the OP was open enough:

Regarding fashion models, I think if people really understood the fashion industry they would stop caring so much about what fashion models look like. I think of modeling as an art form… I think it’s a damn shame they use such fascist beauty standards, but it’s not like a big secret that they do… they openly admit it. Most women who are models don’t care either way… they don’t have to obsess over their weight because the vast majority are naturally rail-thin, and when they do, it has little to do with looking “beautiful” and everything to do with looking “model standard.” Yes, it’s possible to be beautiful and not look like a supermodel. Models know they’re beautiful… what they’re concerned about is that aesthetic standard which happens to be part of the job qualification. I think most people think of the industry’s pickiness over a model’s looks as an example of what a real woman should look like… I don’t really blame the modeling industry on that, per se, so much as I blame stupid shallow people for not knowing the difference.

ETA: regarding the actual instance of Tyra Banks and the media backlash over her gaining weight, the “stupid people” in question would be the media. That’s how normal people get confused about what beauty standards should be. Most people wouldn’t know a runway show from their asshole if it wasn’t such a public affair.

24

Oh noes!!! The Media!!! What will we do!!!

Who’s buying these magazines? Who’s watching these crap shows like Extra and E!Whatever?

Can there just, for the love of Pete, be one thing we don’t blame on “The Media”?

25

[QUOTE=Caridwen]
We’re talking about fashion models though, not regular people. The whole point of a model is to be a hanger to display clothes. Models have been extremely thin for years and years. It’s no different now than it was 40-50 years ago.
[/QUOTE]

Right but they are displaying clothes that would fit a twig, not representative of the everyday normal female human being.

26

[QUOTE=Antigen]
Damn good attitude, olives. I alternate between days like that and days I feel like a cow, but I’m working on it.

What contributes most to the bad days? Not the TV, not the magazines. It’s size labeling in clothing stores. I’m a size 10-12, depending on the cut, and usually fall into size “large” because I’m busty. But there are some stores whose sizing seems to be way off, and I can’t button up a blouse or zip up a pair of pants till I get to a size 14, and even their XLs are a little snug. Then something sort of snaps inside me, because size 14 is supposed to be the start of the “plus sizes”. I start thinking - plus size? They’re telling me I’m a plus size? How’s that possible? Look at me, fercryingoutloud!

I know the number shouldn’t bother me. But the fact that I’m sometimes a 10 and sometimes a 14, in the same day, really messes with my self-esteem. It shouldn’t, but it does. I envy guys, whose shopping consists of reading size labels and picking stuff up without having to try on, because the designers/manufacturers aren’t all working with their own ideas of what “medium” should mean.

I’m hot, dammit. You don’t think so? Well, no sex for you! :stuck_out_tongue: Seems to me, though, that these “no fat chicks” men that nashiitashii mentioned, are definitely in the minority. Sure, men will lust after this or that swimsuit model, but when it comes down to actually gettin’ some, they prefer someone they can hang onto and not worry about snapping in half. The media is screwy, but I don’t think too many real men really subscribe to the underweight-is-sexy view. Unfortunately, it’s easy for a woman to see the attitude of the tabloids and entertainment shows and assume that everyone thinks the same way.
[/QUOTE]

To pick a nit - there are MISSES 14s and there are WOMENS 14s. Ditto 16, 18, 20. I would equate (roughly) a WOMANS 14 with a MISSES 16 or 18.

It’s all relative - having come from a WOMENS 30-32 to a Misses 14, I think I look hawt :smiley:

VCNJ~

27

[QUOTE=HandsomeBWonderful]
Oh noes!!! The Media!!! What will we do!!!

Who’s buying these magazines? Who’s watching these crap shows like Extra and E!Whatever?

Can there just, for the love of Pete, be one thing we don’t blame on “The Media”?
[/QUOTE]

Yeah? The people who are buying them up are teen girls, who are too young IMO to really differentiate and have a good self-esteem. I certainly don’t buy crap like this but I’m 31 and have had a good many years behind me to appreciate curves on myself.

Yes, I absolutely think the Media holds a good portion of the blame - not even so much as showing it but saying things like Waddle and insulting perfectly feminine women becaause they can.

28

Well, it’s not ME. The media-public thing is a vicious cycle that feeds off of itself, and is, in itself, comprised entirely of people. So we’re back to my original premise - -“shallow idiots.” I just don’t get how using a word like “media” has to be unintelligent scapegoating… what do you want me to say… “The Patriarchy”? :rolleyes: It’s just as good a theory… women have been doing impossible things to their bodies since the dawn of time in the interest of fitting a standard image… but men, not so much. You wanna blame women for this? Social psychology? The herd instinct? What? What response would you find acceptable?

29

Frankly, I think the skinny phenomenon is all about clothing designers. Either a) the industry is heavily influenced by people who themselves have negative body images or b) they’re just looking for moving, human coathangers to display their wares.

30

[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
It works on multiple levels, too. I’ve heard plenty of tall women complain about not being able to find their correct size…
[/QUOTE]

It’s hard, that I can tell you. I’m tall (6’1) and could stand to lose some weight, but being tall I wear it pretty well. Unfortunately for me, I am a tall woman with a ‘peasants build’. I’m stocky, I’m not all that hippy but I have curves. Actually, the easiest way to describe me is this. Go look at some paintings by Rubens. See those women? That’s me, only I have better breasts.

Tall clothing is generally made for women like on the catwalk (or so it seems to me). Most stores that carry tall sizes STOP at 14/15, maybe a 16, the thighs and butt in pants are often skinny throughout. For shirts, the shoulders aren’t that wide and the bust is often too small leaving buttons gaping or breasts shoved out. Thankfully there is one store that I can shop at and be assured of finding my size (Tall Girl carries up to a size 22 or so, which means I can almost always find something to fit taking into account variations between styles and designer sizing) but I have to save my money to shop there and most of it is more business and dressy items. I’ve been thanking whoever decided long was in this season, it means I’m more likely to find something that lets me cover both my chest and my stomach, not one or the other (or neither!).

But this is a whole other rant and I probably shouldn’t post it here but I am.

Personally, I think Tyra looks just fine at either size, but better with a little extra. I just wish we could have girls love their bodies as they are, as long as they are healthy and not have models, or anyone, starving themselves to fit the ‘ideal’ that no one can agree on anyway! Not even the ones we are trying to attract.

Doesn’t make me any less jealous of the other tall women who are willowy and beautiful (like my cousin, who can eat but has a finer bone structure and higher metabolism than I do at about the same height), but by damn I refuse to let them make me feel like a freak for what nature gave me (except maybe after a long day of shopping).

31

[QUOTE=Beware of Doug]
b) they’re just looking for moving, human coathangers to display their wares.
[/QUOTE]

That’s absolutely true, for runway models. They’re all just walking twigs, because then the clothes can “drape” properly. What is more disconcerting, and IMO more damaging to the susceptible young women with body-image issues, is that the women being used in all other forms of advertising, seem to mostly conform to the same ultrathin ideal.

When you’re selling mascara, or perfume, or watches, when you’re showing off a hairstyle, what’s the need for the skinnies? Whatever their reasoning, the ad folks have decided that those shapes are best to sell their product, and so that’s what a girl sees when she’s flipping through Seventeen magazine or Cosmo, trying to get makeup ideas for the prom. And that’s too bad.

When I was younger, I’d read these magazines all the time, to see what length of skirt was “in” this season, and to get all the hair and groomnig tips and do the Cosmo quiz to see if I was a good date. and I’d end up a little depressed afterwards, because despite the dozens of articles telling you to feel good about your body and be healthy, every second page had some teeny sexy woman on it. The conflict is a lot for a teen mind to handle, IMO.

No, I don’t throw a huge blanket of blame on “the media”. Obviously, we have the choice to turn off the TV or stop buying those magazines. But, well, little girls want to be popular and conform to the current “look”. Whether that’s innate or a product of our culture, I don’t know, but it’s there, and when the media is telling you to stop worrying about your size while they’re hitting you over the head with size-2 D-cup models, it’s confusing and depressing.

32

[QUOTE=Flutterby]

Personally, I think Tyra looks just fine at either size, but better with a little extra. I just wish we could have girls love their bodies as they are, as long as they are healthy and not have models, or anyone, starving themselves to fit the ‘ideal’ that no one can agree on anyway! Not even the ones we are trying to attract.

[/QUOTE]

I AGREE 100%

33

[QUOTE=Antigen]
That’s absolutely true, for runway models. They’re all just walking twigs, because then the clothes can “drape” properly. [snip]
[/QUOTE]

Which takes us back the absurdities of women’s clothing. Before women’s clothing was offered in generic numbered sizes, hanging off of racks, the ideals of feminine beauty were most definitely nothing like “coathangers.” Because, of course, if you tailor clothing to the curves of a woman, rather than wanting them to hang shapelessly and flatly from a hanger, then the actual, appealing, and normal dimensions of women will be portrayed. Large or small, shapely or not, just about every female body would be better served by tailored clothing than the numbered sizes that are all the majority of the developed world wear.

When you get right down to it, the whole thing has more to do with how we get our clothes than anything else.

34

[QUOTE=HandsomeBWonderful]
Oh noes!!! The Media!!! What will we do!!!

Who’s buying these magazines? Who’s watching these crap shows like Extra and E!Whatever?

Can there just, for the love of Pete, be one thing we don’t blame on “The Media”?
[/QUOTE]

Personally, I blame the media 90% for this kind of crap. I blame the other 10% on women who are led by the media, which basically brings my total of media-blame to 100%.

It’s easy to dismiss Extra! and Cosmo and E!Whatever and Seventeen… not so easy to dismiss Family Circle, Good Housekeeping, Self, and other magazines geared toward women, ALL of which prominently feature diet article after diet article. When every magazine cover shows Kirstie Alley either being criticized for being fat, or lauded for losing weight. Oprah’s weight is a regular feature, as is Britney’s, and even Angelina Jolie’s. There are countless cover stories titled “How Julia Roberts/Katie Holmes/Reese Witherspoon lost the baby weight!”

TONS of media attention is given to women’s figures, more frequently than not at the expense of ANY OTHER QUALITY that has actual value. When models are held up as examples of beauty and we don’t come anywhere near those standards, it’s way easy to start feeling bad about your own body.

I’m 5’2" and weigh 107 pounds, and I constantly hear bullshit from other women: “OMG, you are SO skinny! I am SO jealous!” (I’m not skinny, I am in fact very well-proportioned for my height, and even a tad bottom-heavy.) Models who are 6-10 inches taller than I am, who weigh the same as I do, are a near-impossible standard for ANY woman. Supermodels may be genetic “freaks” or they may be anorexics, but REAL people aren’t meant to be that shape.

35

[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
I’m 5’2’’ and a size 12, very hippy and busty…
[/QUOTE]
And married. Dammit.

36

[QUOTE=LifeOnWry]
It’s easy to dismiss Extra! and Cosmo and E!Whatever and Seventeen… not so easy to dismiss Family Circle, Good Housekeeping, Self, and other magazines geared toward women, ALL of which prominently feature diet article after diet article.
[/QUOTE]

Interspersed, of course, with recipes for fattening desserts and heavy dinner entrees, that you make, you know, for your family. There aren’t enough roll-eyes in the world for the hypocrisy … women’s mags, for the most part, are giant sacks of shite.

37

I’ve said this before: when I was in art school, we learned that fashion models aren’t even drawn to the same proportions as regular people. They are taller, espcially in the legs, for the same width of pelvis and chest; the head looks smaller and may even be drawn that way.

So even if the designers were trying to simply fit the clothing to their drawings, it doesn’t help if the drawings are wrong.

A while ago, there was an ad campaign for, I think, Dove soap, which covered entire square dekametres of walls in the Toronto subway with photographs of beautiful curvaceous women of natural build. It was refreshing to see normally-built women.

It was also very distracting.

Right now, there are smaller ads for some skin cream or other featuring a smiling model in a sleeveless outfit, with arms crossed. The tag line says something like, “Your skin will be an extrovert”. My first reaction was" Nice smile, she’s pretty." Then, as I took in the whole picture, “She is scarily thin.” Now I feel disappointed everytime I see the ad.

38

She was Basted by Lambs? What a horrible fate!

Worse, by far, than being lambasted by the press.

39

[QUOTE=romansperson]
Interspersed, of course, with recipes for fattening desserts and heavy dinner entrees, that you make, you know, for your family. There aren’t enough roll-eyes in the world for the hypocrisy … women’s mags, for the most part, are giant sacks of shite.
[/QUOTE]

Yes they are. Yesterday I was in line at a store and flipped through a copy of Cosmopolitan while I was waiting. There was a full page ad for a cosmetic surgery clinic that basically stated “we guarantee financing and will do anything you want.” Good gods! :eek:

How women view themselves is a very complicated thing. I get confused when my husband drools over an actress or model and then tells me he loves me just the way I am. (Is it because I’m more accessible? Does your taste in women vary? Are you trying to keep me from killing you?)

There is a looooong history of ladies going to extreme measures to fit the current standard of beauty. Tyra Banks is being treated like anyone who goes against “mainstream” rules: criticized, ridiculed and marginalized.

40

See? You give me hope for our future.

(The flattery has nothing to do with my opinion, nope…)