I’ll post my question in the next post to avoid roll over spoilers.
This is from the comic con panel with the cast and George RR Martin.
What is the R.W. scene? I read the books(through 3), but it’s been nearly 10 years. Waht scene/death is he referring to?
The Red Wedding- a wedding gone wrong in which two major and several minor characters are killed.
I think every single reader laid down the book at that point and walked away for a while to calm down. It is HARD. If you really really really want a spoiler read on:
Robb breaks his oath to the Freys to marry a girl he dishonored by sleeping with her after she nursed him back to health when she took an injury during one of his many battles. To make it up to them Robb offers to marry Catelyns brother and lord of the River lands Edmure Tully to one of the Frey women. During the wedding the Frey’s betray Robb, murder him in cold blood in front of his mother, kill most of his major bannermen and then cut Catelyn’s throat. Then they kill his wolf, cut both their heads off and sew the head of the wolf on Robbs body. Catelyn’s naked body is dumped in the river.
My description does zero justice to the actual written words.
If you want specifics, I’ll include them in spoiler below:
[spoiler]When crossing the Red Fork Rob Stark and his mother Catelyn make several concessions to get Lord Walder Frey to allow them passage and support their cause. The most important is that once he’s victorious Rob Stark will marry a girl from House Frey- his choice of Walder’s daughters/granddaughters/etc…
While on campaign Rob falls in love, or at least in lust with, Jeyne Westerling, and marries her. The Freys are, understandably, furious at this betrayal. To make it up to them he convinces his maternal uncle, Edmure of Riverrun, to marry a Frey and he agrees to other concessions and to having his ass chewed publicly by the Freys, but he will not divorce Jeyne. The Freys claim to agree to this.
Catelyn and Robb escort Edmure to be wed. The Stark’s forces wait outside the castle (where there’s also a huge tent and reception set up to celebrate the wedding). The old man Walder rips Robb a new one verbally, BUT he also extends to them bread and salt and wine- the traditional gifts of hospitality that are extended to a guest in your house and that obligate you to be their host, so Cat and Robb feel secure. The wedding goes forward, there’s a huge drunken party with everybody among the Starks and their nobility drinking to excess- though the Freys and their banners aren’t drinking nearly as much, and the wine is flowing freely in the tents outside as well.
Comes the part of the wedding where the groom and bride are stripped and taken upstairs to be bedded down- all goes well. Catelyn and Robb and several of their nobles remain downstairs. At that point Walder’s men open fire with crossbows and draw their swords and there is a massacre. Robb and Catelyn and several of their nobles are killed (as are a few Frey men they manage to take with them). Robb’s direwolf is killed (after much effort and with crossbows) and his head is sewn onto Robb’s headless body. Catelyn’s throat is cut and her dead body is stripped naked and thrown into the river in a mockery of her family’s funeral customs.
Meanwhile outside the Frey troops are massacring the drunken Stark and Riverrun troops. It’s a total disaster for House Stark. Frey has allied with the Lannisters and is promised, among other things, Riverrun for this treachery.[/spoiler]
And another much shorter spoiler:
Catelyn gets better after being murdered and thrown naked into a river, but she’s really really pissed off.
Wait, Catelyn isn’t really dead?
Yeesh.
Now, the incident that happened at the The Twins castle that put this whole gory story into motion, has since become legend. “Massacre near Hag’s Mire”. That’s how the bards sang it. The local Maesters called it, “The Winterfell Wedding Chapel Massacre”. How it happened, who was there, how many got killed and who killed them - changes depending on who’s telling the story. In actual fact, the massacre didn’t happen during a wedding at all. It was a wedding rehearsal.
Look in wiki for “Lady Stoneheart”
Plus even the Lannisters and other people who are now allied with the Freys look down on them for it. And “Frey hospitality” is something of a euphemism. Later one of Jaime’s cousins is betrothed to one of Walder’s descendants and is mentioning how he’s not looking forward to the marriage because the bride isn’t attractive and Jaime tells him something to the effect of “Watch what you say- the Freys get kind of pissy when you don’t go through with a marriage.”
Actually it was the wedding reception. The bride and groom had been bedded down. It’s not clear if the bride knew what was going to happen, but pains were taken to not spoil the honeymoon because the Freys wanted the wedding consummated. They then took Edmure prisoner and once his wife became pregnant his life wasn’t really worth a plug nickel because whoever wins the war the Freys have the heir to Riverrun (either the Frey to whom it was promised or Edmure’s legitimate child) in the family.
She was definitely killed, but her body was found and she was brought back to life. She’s more than a zombie (i.e. she remembers everything that happened) but less than Catelyn Stark. She also looks like somebody who was murdered and thrown in a river, and she can speak only with great effort due to the cut throat. Any trace of mercy (not that this was ever her strong suit anyway) is gone. She takes a new name, Lady Stoneheart, and kills Freys whenever she can (unarmed, young, innocent-of-the-wedding massacre, makes no difference).
No spoiler because it hasn’t happened, but they’ve made such a huge deal about the number of Frey’s descendants (he has 21 legitimate sons and many daughters and illegitimate sons) that I expect every single male Frey to be killed as payback for the wedding, either by the remaining Stark faction or by the Lannisters if they break with the Freys. Basically, somebody will extinguish a house that logic said stood no chance whatever of becoming extinct (at least the legitimate side of it).
She’s not really alive.
One thing that I think was left out of the previous spoilers is that when Robb is bedded by Jeyne Westerling, he is
Mouring the deaths of Bran and Rickon, his brothers
Not really dead either.
Also, I forget who was responsible (I read the books a long time ago), but it’s heavily implied, or maybe stated outright, that one of the Starks’ enemies set the whole thing in motion by putting a love potion in Robb’s drink.
Jeyne’s grandmother was a witch. The Westerlings are bannermen to the Lannisters. It’s rumored that momma Westerling had her daughter seduce Robb so that this whole thing could happen and the Lannisters would gift the Westerlings some land or something.
As far as I recall, that’s like 99% speculation.
The reanimated Catelyn thing annoyed me greatly. I’m working my way through the books now (just finished Storm of Swords) and she’s the one character that I dislike the most–in a meta-sense, really; there are characters that I know I’m supposed to dislike in the context of the story, and I do, but they’re fun to hate. Catelyn, on the other hand, is someone I think I’m supposed to like, but don’t. Everything about her just grated on me (not the least being her stupid decisions to kidnap Tyrion and release Jaime).
I was happy to be rid of her after the Red Wedding, but now she’s back. Maybe she’ll be more likeable as one of the living dead.
I’m fully on board, but I think this is good writing. As with many I vaguely like Jaime, despite his numerous flaws. And apparently as with at least some, I vaguely dislike Catelyn, despite her significant strengths. It’s been said many times, but Martin really has excelled at creating complex characters that to some extent subvert ( or at least nicely nuance ) the traditional tropes characters are usually forced into by the structure of the story.
About the only totally “Boo hiss!” loathsome characters have been Gregor Clegane, Prince Joffrey, and the Mummers. Most have at least some redeeming qualities, though Cersei probably has the least.
As written, yes. I have to say one of the best, possibly THE best thing about the TV series is the greater depth she has gained in the translation to the screen. She was probably the only major character that verged on full-on cartoon villain in the book. Gregor was more an ugly force of nature, Joffrey understandable as the product of a truly regrettable overindulgent upbringing. But book Cersei seemed to lack the kind of character and intelligence that could have attracted Jaime’s devotion. TV Cersei is a considerable improvement as a bad guy.
A great TV scene that wasn’t in the books was where she and Robert share a cup of wine. He laments the state of the kingdoms and says “What is to hold it together?” Cersei answers “Our love”, and both of them crack up- they actually even have a little moment laughing over how awful their marriage is. I liked it.
I also liked how they handled her killing of Robert. She led to his death in some way, but even in the U.S.A. a jury that was in possession of all facts (as they happened, not as they were reported) would have a hard time finding her guilty. She made available stronger wine than normal but didn’t poison it or spike it with anything, she basically let his own lack of self control take over. That was pretty slick.
Ned Stark is one of my least favorite characters. There’s honor but there’s also downright stupidity and naivety as well as pure dogmatic blindness. He should have known Cersei wasn’t going to sit by and let her kids be killed, plus the kingdoms were frankly well rid of Robert to begin with. (I really like how Martin paints King Robert: most fantasies end with “They’ve won the war, now all is well”, but what happens when the hero turns out to be shit as a ruler- and “better with the sword than with the pen” has happened many times in history. Robert’s not a villain in most things but he’s a terrible king.
I actually see Jaime as one of the book’s heroes. Not advocating twincest or anything, but you can understand why they had their relationship, and the reasons he broke his oath and became the Kingslayer are understandable.
I haven’t started the new book yet, but I hope Varys is a character. I think he’s one of the more interesting figures. I loved the scene where Tyrion was shocked to see how modest, almost monastic, Varys’s private apartments were; the powder and perfume and silk robes are a persona he can put on and take off like one of his fake beards.