The problem is the shopkeeper has very imperfect information. Faced with a gun in the face, he has no idea whether handing over the money is going to end the threat.
100%, and it requires a complete overhaul not just to the justice system, but also to the way Americans look at punishment. The “3 strike” system, which ties judge’s hands to give outrageous sentences for relatively minor crimes is a perfect example. The private prison system (and public sector sheriff unions) have way too much invested in locking people up to let those laws be changed.
No, but generally, that’s the best bet. If I were ever to be robbed, that’s what I would do.
Does it guarantee my safety? No, but I think that it maximizes my potential of surviving unscathed.
They do go hand in hand. Prosecutors around here run on being tough on criminals, getting hard sentences. Even judges run on being hard on criminals. And it works, as these are the people who get elected by the people.
Especially since someone pointing a gun at you and demanding money probably doesn’t want to shoot you, they just want money. If I went into a place with the desire to murder someone, I’d shoot them first, then grab their keys to get the cash out. That way they don’t have a chance to push a panic button, or pull a weapon, or make a grab at my weapon, etc.
Then again, you can’t always use rationality to predict a criminal’s motives or what they’re going to do. Rational people don’t rob folks at gunpoint. But I’d say most of the time, someone pointing a gun at you and saying “give me your money” just wants your money.
You seem to misconstrue what I’m saying. I agree that society has and continues to fail certain people. However, people are still responsible for their own actions, absent real mental health issues. Is a store owner within his rights to defend his property by using force? Yes. At least, according to the law where I live. Can he shoot a shoplifter? No. However, if he shoots a guy pointing a gun at him, that’s his choice and his right to do so. Just because you would choose differently has nothing to do with it. It seems you are asking or expecting someone to bet their life that they won’t be the statistical exception and end up dead.
You are right in that rational people do commit armed robberies, sometimes killing their victims. They have made a considered choice and have to live or die with the consequences. The first homicide I investigated was three juveniles who made the choice to rob a gas station at gunpoint. Unfortunately for the unarmed proprietor, he ended up dead. Ballistics indicate all three fired their guns during the robbery/murder. I’m pretty sure his family doesn’t want to hear about the “desperation” of the killers. At what point do we hold people accountable and not blame the system?
Hard to even tell who it is that you are replying to here. There is a quote function for a reason.
Right, and often that is exactly what is leading people into these sorts of situations. We don’t recognize mental health issues as something that should be addressed, but rather punished.
Though whoever it is that you are replying to, this is a gross misrepresentation of what they said. It is in no way actually related to anything that anyone has said, and is essentially a lie you made up out of whole cloth.
Given your previous lies, I am inclined to assume that you made that up, too, but even in the small chance that you are telling the truth, and not misrepresenting facts, so the fuck what? What does that have to do with anything that has been discussed here?
Ah, crocodile tears and an appeal to emotion rather than actually discussing facts. Pretty much par for the course in your attempts at destroying this man you have made of straw here.
Maybe around the same point that we start holding cops accountable for their actions and lies. You are/were a cop, right? I take it that you have no respect for honesty or the truth in any capacity. You do realize that you are exactly what is wrong with our justice system, and why so many people are turning to distrust it, right? When people say defund the police, they are talking about you.
But, if someone grows up in poverty, with poor education, poor nutrition, terrorized and tormented by “law enforcement”, raised by people who themselves have mental health issues, and having mental health issues themselves from this upbringing, when do we hold society to account for putting people into those environments?
I am sympathetic if the store owner meets the requirements of the law when it comes to using force to defend his property. That law varies from place to place but (generally) some level of force is allowed to protect your property. Where I live, this does not include deadly force unless the store owner himself is threatened with deadly force. In such a case, he is actually defending himself and not his property. If the store owner crosses the line, he is subject to the legal consequences.
quote=“k9bfriender, post:154, topic:954165”]
The person who holds up a store almost certainly knows what they are doing is wrong, but has been pushed through desperation to do so anyway
[/quote]
How do you know that they have been pushed through desperation? Seriously. How can you make such a blanket statement?
And what do you base that opinion on? I spent a career dealing with people who knowingly risked imprisonment for their actions. If they went to prison, it was just part of the game. A lookout on a street corner drug dealing operation might make $100 cash or more for a few hours work. Why take an entry level job at a burger joint for $10/hour? For that matter, a moderately successful drug dealer can easily make more than your average college graduate with a fresh diploma. There are Help Wanted signs everywhere for jobs that don’t require a degree and armed robberies are still taking place. If they can’t hold a job, do they bear no responsibility? Is this all the fault of society for making drugs illegal? How do you account for the people being raised and living in the same environment (in my experience, the majority) who don’t turn a criminal lifestyle?
And at least part of what went wrong is choices that they made. I get the general impression that you have an excuse for everyone’s wrongdoing and personal responsibility doesn’t exist.
The key there being “most of the time”. Sometimes, they don’t want to leave witnesses or panic and pull the trigger. No one can be expected to bet their life on the good intentions of someone who is pointing a gun a them. k9befriender says he would just turn over the money and that’s his choice. If I’m looking down the barrel of a gun, I’m the desperate one and if feel I can shoot him before he shoots me, I’m doing it.
I was a cop and you can make make whatever assumptions you want. That doesn’t mean that you’re right. I can make assumptions, too. I assume you have never been the victim of a violent crime. I assume you read a lot but have no direct experience in the things you pontificate about. Wasn’t it you who said, in a previous thread, that you wouldn’t go to the aid of your neighbor who was being violently abused by their spouse? Based on that, I assume you are all talk and no action. If that wasn’t you, I apologize in advance. I also assume that you are a cop-hater through and through but will call them when you need them.
Who is crying these tears? Me? The family of the murdered shop keeper? Do you even know what the term means? The actual fact is that these killers had other options and they chose to pull the triggers. The idea that they or others in similar situations only do so out of desperation is misguided, to say the least.
So, until cops are accountable to your standards, everyone else is a victim. Including people who rob stores at gunpoint and, sometimes, kill people along the way. Because they are, you know, desperate.
How do you take that as a blanket statement? There is caveat and nuance there that you just ignore in order to try to make whatever point it is that you are desperate to make.
So, you agree, our society is pretty fucked up and has failed someone in that position.
I thought you said that you did have sympathy for mental health issues. Was that just a lie?
I get the general impression that you leap to conclusions and then read into what people say in order to confirm to yourself that those suspicions are correct.
See, this is where you start telling lies. Why do you do that?
Seriously, is winning some internet argument important enough to you that you just throw any semblance of honesty and integrity out the window?
What the fuck is wrong with you, anyway?
What I said was that I felt that if someone is pointing a gun at me, then the best course of action to protect my life is to give them the money.
If you try to shoot him before he shoots you, then one of two things happens. They shoot you first, because they have the gun pulled on you, and it’s easier for them to pull the trigger than it is for you to pull out your gun. Or, two, they don’t actually want to kill anyone, so they don’t pull the trigger, and you kill them.
Either way is a suboptimal outcome. Though you do have a chance at killing someone, so maybe that’s a perk to you, and getting the chance to be responsible for the death of someone that you think deserves it is worth the risk.
Based on the lies you have told here, I assume that you were a very bad cop, probably violated quite a number of civil rights, and are a large part of the reason for distrust for cops.
Or maybe you are just a lying asshole here, and somehow compartmentalized that while dealing with lowlife scum and criminals.
that would be incorrect.
No, don’t think I ever said anything like that. Probably just another one of your lies.
Man, with assumptions like this, you made a really shitty cop, didn’t you?
See, that’s the sort of reason why you make a bad cop. You make a whole bunch of assumptions, some of which are based on pure fabrication on your part. How many times did you make assumptions about the people you encountered in your job? How many times did you abuse your authority rather than admit that your assumptions were out of line?
No, I am certainly not a cop hater. I just think that bad cops like you are what makes people distrust cops in general. If anyone becomes a cop hater, it is because of the actions of yourself and people like you. Like it or not, when you wear that uniform, you are representing cops in general, and when you abuse your authority, tell lies and genereally act like a shit head like you do, you make all cops look bad.
So, yeah, I do hate cops that abuse their authority, but unless you are making the claim that all cops abuse their authority, then I’m not a cop hater “through and through.”
You make the world a worse place, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Maybe, but I’ve seen this played out with airsoft a number of times. I’ve never seen the person drawing manage to shoot before being shot in the face (shield). Most are shot before they even get their gun free of the holster. Hell, most didn’t even get their hand on their gun before being shot. I don’t really even see how it is physically possible to beat someone who already has a gun on you. And this is assuming that you don’t have a safety to disengage, and that you are carrying a live round in the chamber. And then it also assumes that you are good enough under pressure and adrenaline to actually hit your target. If you are not this paranoid and ready for a chance to shoot someone, then you are going to have even more trouble trying to beat someone who has their gun pointed at your head.
The only way that it works is if the person hesitates, and the only reason they would do that is if they weren’t planning on killing you. It also can work if the gun isn’t real, or isn’t loaded, but that would also be because they weren’t planning on killing you.
So, if killing someone is your goal, then sure, go for it, you may get a chance to kill someone who wasn’t planning on killing you. If protecting your own safety is your goal, probably not the best idea.
All that really happens if enough people follow this advice is that the criminals who are willing to kill you will do that first, then they will pull your wallet from your corpse, or take the money from the till while standing over your dead body, or do whatever they want, now that you are deceased, and no longer any sort of threat to them.
Talk about straw men. What on earth does any of your post after the first sentence have anything to do with the question I posed back then? Keep on hating cops. That’s your right. I hope you never need one, as you’ll be faced with a real dilemma. I’m out of this thread.