By experience, I have seen a lot of what the right wing media does. What they do is to twist the normal things a lot of the left and moderates do say.
And then I see many moderates fall for the impression that a lot of what the left or progressives are saying are “dumb things”. (And this is because there is really almost no liberal media to talk about.) It is the MAGA framework the item that we also should fight against.
I actually do know a bit about what’s stopping people from entering this fight, because I have been talking to people about that for many, many months.
Most people who would like to do more are limited by either money, family, and job circumstances, or because they feel overwhelmed and hopeless.
Based on what I’ve heard from people that I talk to, I have been spending my efforts on connecting people and groups so they feel less alone (and therefore less hopeless and unheard), teaching people some anti-consumption basics (because that’s where most of us have leverage, if we can avoid falling in the trap of thinking we have to be perfect at it), supporting artists who are good at telling stories about hope and resistance, and neighborhood mutual aid.
I know you don’t want to listen for some reason, but I think if you spend less time telling people what to do, and more time asking how you can help them do what they want to do, you would be more effective at getting people to fight Trump.
However, since I think this isn’t about being effective – it’s about being peevish – you won’t do anything like that.
I don’t think so. I have seen no evidence that anyone is aside from your assertions that they might be.
“When somebody shows you who they are, believe them the first time.” – Maya Angelou
Stranger
I included the quote of somebody saying it in my post. What evidence that somebody is saying this would you accept?
Not sure what your point is. But if this is directed at me, I said this in the OP.
He, along with the Republican party, are trying to destroy democracy.
Have you considered putting that person, or does that not give you the audience you crave?
Someone who isn’t prompted by this particular discussion. Any human outside of this thread.
…what you quoted is the most random, the most mildly hyperbolic thing to get upset about.
The slow march to authoritarian isn’t being ushered in by people like Der_Trihs, but by millions of people like you, who won’t say a word about the genocide both the Republicans AND the Democrats largely cheerfully fund and support, but will spend days raging out over mildly hyperbolic statement in the pit.
And are you really “raging out?” Nah, not really. I’m being mildly hyperbolic. Because that’s what we sometimes do in the pit. It isn’t something we should take too seriously.
But just while we are here, I know you don’t want to talk about it, but I’m really curious to know where you stand. Do you agree that Israel are committing genocide in Gaza, and that Trump is funding and supporting it?
I’ll be honest, I don’t have a clear opinion on this subject. I’ve heard conflicting reports from different sources and I haven’t done enough research to conclude who I should believe.
I don’t feel there’s much the Trump administration has done to cause the killings there and I don’t feel there’s much the Trump administration could do to stop them. This is something that’s being done by the people that live there.
And I am not one of those people. I’m not an Israeli or a Palestinian. I don’t have a personal stake in this issue and there’s nothing meaningful I can do about what’s going on there.
Does this make me callous? Maybe. But there are also people being killed in Chad, Ethiopia, Mozambique, Myanmar, Sudan, Syria, Uyghurstan, and Yemen. I have virtually no influence in those places either. I try to work on problems where I feel I can make a difference.
If my argument is that somebody is saying this, why would I choose to not notice the person who is saying it right here?
Or more likely they’ll just make something up, as they usually do.
It’s bizarre how hyperfocused some people get on me.
Because that person is responding to you, whereas your concern isn’t about people responding to you, but about the situation at large.
You are concerned that people are deliberately breaking eggs in kitchens. You are having that argument in a kitchen, where someone is annoyed enough at you to deliberately break an egg. Then you say, “Aha! See!” but I don’t think it proves the point.
…I appreciate your candour.
But this right here demonstrates exactly why people like you are a bigger threat to democracy than anything Der_Trihs might say.
Because you seem to have missed everything that has happened on the domestic front in regard to what’s happening in Gaza. Everything from what happened to student protesters, the complete capitulation of universities to the administration, blacklisting, firings, arrests, evictions, it rivals McCarthyism witch hunts all in the name of a foreign government.
None of that was done by “people that lived there.” It was done by people you voted for.
You are funding it. Your taxpayer money is funding it. The Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, which is contributing to the famine in Gaza, where well over a thousand people have been slaughtered trying to get food from, the United States of America is the only publicly named donor. (everybody else is to cowardly to admit it) It’s staffed by American mercenaries.
And this isn’t even the half of it. But the idea that you are somehow detached from this, when the United States was largely the only country voting against resolutions at the United Nations, using its veto power to block them, is just absurd.
There is literally a Wikipedia article about Trumps plan for Gaza.
Donald Trump's Gaza Strip proposal - Wikipedia.
That “forced displacement” he calls for? That’s ethnic cleansing. It’s part of the genocide of the Palestinian people. That’s explicitly what the President of the United States has called for. From the Wiki page:
This is very much your problem.
Not by people I voted for. Unless you’re engaging in bothsiderism. And if you think there’s no significant difference between the Republicans and the Democrats, then you’re revealing your judgement on political issues can be dismissed.
But let’s say, for the sake of argument, that you’re right. That the primary reason that Israel is killing Palestinians is because the Trump administration wants it done. (I’ll admit that I feel that the reason is that the Netanyahu administration wants it done and they would be doing it regardless of who was in the White House.) But let’s say it’s the Trump administration.
So what should we do? We should work on getting the Trump administration out of power. And what do we need to do that? Widespread public opposition to Trump in the United States.
And here’s the central issue. What message do you feel is more likely to build up opposition to Trump in the United States? Telling people we need to oppose Trump in order to save the Palestinians? Or telling people we need to oppose Trump in order to save America?
Which is more motivating? Images of starving children, or of (so far mostly) mildly inconvienced Americans?
…everything I talked about happened under Biden.
That isn’t “bothsiderism.”
The campus protests were SMASHED while Biden was president. And he didn’t say a word. The blacklistings? the evictions? The firings? The capitulations of universities to the administration? The only thing the Trump administration bought to the table were the detentions of people like Mahmoud Khalil. But everything else started on the Democrats watch.
Strawman.
I didn’t argue “Israel is killing Palestinians is because the Trump administration wants it done.”
And genocide isn’t just “killing.” It’s a process. I’m not talking about just killing. I’m talking about genocide.
One minute: “we need to be fighting climate change. This is the 3rd most important thing in the world”
Nek minnit: “so what should we do about the genocide my government is funding and supporting? I can’t think of anything at all.”
Try this: whatever you were imagining should happen to fight climate change should be the very same thing you should do to combat genocide. Use some imagination.
You did that when voted Trump out of office the first time. Its what happened after that got us where we are now. Short-term-thinking.
Because if, by some miracle, you do manage to get Trump out of power, the very same thing is just going to happen again the next election. Because the establishment Democrats are captured by the donor class, by the pundits, the think-tanks, and largely don’t really care if they are in power or not. That’s why you barely see any fight. You all sleepwalked right into Trumps second term.
You need to be thinking MUCH bigger than you are.
I’d be telling you to stop worrying about the messaging.
Because “messaging” is driven by the establishment, the pundits and the consultant class, and it leads to the most inane focus-tested drivel meant to appeal to “the centre”, but largely doesn’t appeal to anyone at all.
Because what the fuck does “we need to oppose Trump in order to save America” even mean?
Is that it? Is this your grand strategy?
This is what the thread is all about?
Because it’s barely indistinguishable from the strategy the Democrats went into the last election with, and it was a failure. The Democrats lost the House, the Senate and the Executive. They’ve lost the supremes for probably a generation. But you’d barely know it if you listen to many Democrats right now. If you were to look at their voting record. Marco Rubio is a right wing lunatic yet the Democrats voted unanimously to confirm him. And Hillary Clinton said this the other day:
What the fuck is wrong with everyone? What kind of messaging do you think that sends?
The Democrats very carefully avoided any messaging that could be considered “woke.” No “defund the police.” No “abolish ICE.” They would only obliquely talk about what was happening to the Palestinian people before pivoting to the price of a loaf of bread. At the last Democrat convention, the word “trans” was only mentioned once.
And the message this sent to many people wasn’t anything about “saving America.”
It was “we don’t have any backbone. We don’t stand for anything. Now vote for us because we are better than Trump. Trust me.”
That was a high-risk strategy. And it failed.
Instead of worrying about messaging, just stand up for the things you believe in.
Do you oppose the genocide that Israel is committing in Gaza and the ethnic cleansing of the West Bank? Then just say that.
Do you think ICE are out of control and should be disbanded? Trans right are human rights, and we should just let them play sports and use the bathroom in peace? Just say that. And FIGHT for it.
Grow a fucking spine.
That’s the central issue. There is a global authoritarian takeover. Its happening everywhere. And you are not going to defeat it by picking the right focus-tested talking points and messaging.
Because even you manage to beat them down, they will never ever go fully away. It’s going to be a constant battle for the rest of our lives. They are better funded, better organised, and I hate to say it, but just smarter at how the game is played than the opposition are.
Well said. It is breathtakingly bizarre that someone who claims to be against trump, is so ignorant of how intertwined international politics are. Yes we need to shrug off trump, and all the things he has done, and might do. However, we also need a sea change in the US as a whole. Or we will do this shit allover again. There is no such thing as “the middle,” here now. The us is several versions of rightwing. There is right wing lite, rightwing medium, rightwing heavy, and rightwing insane. I laugh everytime trump says, “left wing lunatics.” There is functionally no such thing in this country. We do have leftwingers, most are quite sane, though, as in all ideologies, we have some crazies. But sane or crazy they have no power here. We are represented by the mealymouthed rightwing lite, who work very hard to suppress anything left of reagan.
I keep coming back to this thread to see if it’s getting any less stupid, but so far, no dice.
I mean if we want to put some moral framing on it, arguing about whether Trump is the next Hitler vs the next Orban is not really serving any of his victims. The OP is inherently divisive at a time when unity is critical. It really doesn’t matter where we fall on the spectrum of wanting this fucker and his cronies the hell out of the US government. What matters is that they hear our message. They don’t care about reason and facts, they don’t care where any of us land on this precious fascism spectrum or how we frame our arguments so as not to offend their delicate sensibilities, you can’t reason with fascists.
Let me say it again: You can’t reason with fascists.
The only language these fuckers will ever understand is power.
We need Sherman’s March x10, we will get Reconstruction 2.0