I pit the weak people who kill themselves

The BBQ Pit
101

reads situation Damn. I got nothing.

Mr. X does sound incredibly selfish; the only reason I’m hedging here because I can’t read minds. Maybe he was being selfish (the likelihood is very high). Maybe he had issues even before that to work out–if AM was his mentor and father figure, I can see how. I don’t know.

All I know is from my own experience. I certainly never thought about doing anything with the intention of harming my family or friends; I couldn’t think beyond “this hurts and I want it to stop so badly”. Is that selfish? I’m really and honestly not sure.

102

That’s exactly the sitch. She would have opted out sooner, had the option been available, but no such luck.

I was very appreciative, to tell you the truth. Watching those last couple days was incredibly painful, especially after she told me she wished she just wouldn’t wake up anymore.

I rest my case. Their state motto should be “It’s a Great Place To Die” (Visits? Sure…but let’s keep this in perspective! :wink: )

My vision went instantly weird (first dose). The insert said to call the doctor if I have vision probs and he took me off it immediately. I hope you’re not doing permanent damage!

103

The one is deliberately abandoning the responsibilities he already committed to in order to undertake a new life and new responsibilities elsewhere. He is trying to get a fresh start for himself at the expense of the people who love and depend on him.

The other is not trying to get anything for himself. He’s just collapsing under the strain of an intolerable burden that he finally can no longer endure.

Sure. AFAICT, nobody here is claiming that all suicides are necessarily brave and decent people. Sure, there are some people who are just poison mean, and if they commit suicide they use that as a way to express their meanness.

What’s being objected to here is the notion that suicides in general can be labeled as weak or selfish people.

104

Which is my point exactly. Not all people are the same, and not all suicides are the same. There are truly some people who just need the pain of life to stop. When I was 12 my brother’s best friend killed himself. He was a sweet boy with a harridan of a mother who publicly criticized him everywhere they went, compared him unfavorably to his older and younger brother and belittled all of his accomplishments. When we got the news we were horrified and deeply sad but had no anger for him whatsoever - he was trying to escape from a horrible situation.

Conversely is the guy I was friends with (peripherally) in high school who elected to douse himself in gasoline, walk into the middle of a busy intersection and light himself on fire. He wasn’t quietly trying to get his emotional pain to stop, he was saying “FUCK YOU WORLD! FUCK YOU FAMILY! FUCK YOU FRIENDS!”

These are two very different individuals with very different motivations. One of them was desperately trying to get away from pain, the other was trying to cause it. It does a grave disservice to those who legitimately needed to escape the horrors of life by lumping these folks together.

105

But generalizations go both ways. There seem to be a lot of people in here suggesting that those that commit suicide are poor burdened souls only trying to get away from a lifetime of horor, or the horor awaiting them from a terrible disease.

I’m certainly not going to deny that there are many people in that situation, but before we jump all over the OP’s shit, keeping in mind that he’s posting from an emotional place, perhaps we need to consider that one of the two suicides he knows were total assholes, as opposed to the hurt individuals. Yah, yah, yah, not MPSIMS, etc.

106

That’s where knowing the right people can help. I’ll leave it to you to define “right” because I don’t want to give any ideas to Mr “Wa-Wa I’m Suicidal But I’ve Never Worked Out Any Ways That Weren’t Messy.” Poser, thinks being suicidal is cool so he makes shit up.

Probably not, since it comes back two days after I run out of capsules, but I don’t really care, one way or the other. Young people don’t appreciate how much ennui can simplify your life and “don’t know and don’t care” becomes your motto.

107

Well, *that’s * a fucked up deal.

(no one can. On account of he blew it off.) (sorry…it was irresistable).

True enough. But that doesn’t make suicide selfish…it makes Mr. X selfish.

I dunno…you have to be pretty unhappy to actually do it; I don’t care how big of an asshole you are.

That’s a very sad story.

108

Yes it is. And Mrs. X is my friend. She now seldom leaves the house. All of us (her friends) make an effort to include her. We try to accomodate her depression. When she cancels plans at the last minute because “She’s too sad to get up.” we give her a pass. When she actually attends functions but breaks down in tears we try to comfort her.

You better believe that when we think about Mr. X, we don’t think about a poor tortured soul - we think about the asshole who took our friend from us, because Mrs. X is not the same woman she was before his little stunt and likely never will be. I’m not a real heaven and hell kind of girl, but if there is a hell I hope he’s burning in it.

109

My husband’s brother killed himself, supposedly over a girl. The family is still hurting 25 years later. I’m not saying it’s not painful; I’m just saying that the intent to hurt others is usually not present. The desire to be free of pain is what drives them.

110

I can only speak for myself, but I never implied that suicide couldn’t be selfish or cruel. My point was that it couldn’t be generalized in the way the OP wanted - that all suicides were selfish and weak. Each case is different. A man who kills himself where his family will find him, and/or writes a suicide note trying to make people feel guilty about it is certainly a selfish dick. Whereas at the other extreme a man who has socially isolated himself and simply could not muster the will to keep going after years of crippling depression is hard to classify as selfish.

Each case has its own merits. Suicide can be done on a whim - which is stupid in the case where it’s most likely a temporary emotional stress. Or it can be done on the end of a very long, steady period of breakdown and misery. It can be done by doing your best to not hurt people you left behind, or it can be done in a way that tries to hurt them.

The act itself, in general, shouldn’t be the objective of judgements - it’s the circumstances around it and the way it was done that determine whether or was selfish or weak.

111

Dude, you need to read more of mswas’s posts. This is pretty typical.

112

Of note to those who make exceptions from condemnations for, say, terminal cancer patients:

I knew someone who died of Kaposi’s Sarcoma as a complication of AIDS, and had suffered mental illness most of his life. According to him both the cancer and the AIDS were better than the suicidal depression. Apparently an enormous amount of pain and misery can be manageable if one has some capacity for hope, or some ability to feel positive emotion about even small things.

I’ve never had cancer (or AIDS) but I’ve had my share of physical pain, including the dear-god-anything-to-make-it-stop screaming kind of pain, and there’s nothing on this earth that scares me as much as the memory of that empty, miserable black hole. If long term mental illness made that look permanent, I’d consider it a far worse fate than cancer or Alzheimer’s or whatever it is people are “allowed” to killed themselves for.

113

No thanks, but thanks for the warning.

114

:rolleyes:

I thought about it and decided I wanted to live. I’m glad you were able to find a way to twist it so that you could be righteously derisive. Kudos, you’ll fit right in here.

I am saying I understand wanting to kill oneself, and that I think it’s a valid option. I chose not to. Your commentary on the rest of my life, which is actually pretty good now, is irrelevant.

115

You’re not really this stupid are you? I mean all evidence from past interactions says that you are, but I’m going to pretend you’re sentient for a moment.

I made no determination on the lives of others. They did, when they killed themselves. I am merely agreeing with their right to choose. I am making a determination on the lives of others that is in line with their own determination.

It is those who always want to ‘save’ the suicidal person that are making a determination that their suicide is not a valid option.

116

Stranded on the periphery,
He sank slowly into his despair.
Tears, long departed, faced him,
Screaming at him.
Retching, reaching,
Clawing for his recognition.

He fell forward.
Lost.
Drowned.
Indifferent to his death.

He fell.
Staring.
Confused.
Emotionless.

He fell.
Death enfolded him,
Like a long lost love.
Making love.

He fell.

He felt death.

He felt death seduce him.

Orgasms, intensifying this feeling of death.

He fell death.

117

I’ve met people that for whatever reason cannot find their way into ‘the good life’. People who have walked right next to me for a time. I don’t know why that is so. I don’t know why my best friend in Middle-School had to be abused by his birth parents, his adopted parents and then go in and out of prison eventually becoming schizophrenic and barely articulate when he was one of the smartest people I knew growing up. Yet, that happened to him. He’ll probably live out his life in prison, shafted from the get go. He hasn’t killed himself as far as I know.

An family member of mine who seemed to be living the good life, a well taken care of teacher at a prestigious private school in a wealthy area decided to check out after all his kids graduated college. For what reason? I cannot fathom.

My aunt lived in a situation where her overbearing husband wouldn’t let her learn to drive. She was dependent and socially isolated. One day she made the decision to go. This one I can better understand.

I’ve known people who died of drug overdoses, probably not directly intentional, but if someone is constantly on Heroin and Ketamine, the implications are kind of obvious.

People have the right to the sovereignty over their own lives. If thinking that these are valid choices makes me an asshole then so be it, I’m an asshole. I think that only those who want to live should live, and those who don’t want to shouldn’t. Let them go. Depression is a slow death. We want to consign these people to a personal Hell, but don’t want them to kill themselves. Why? It’s not like watching someone you love waste away into a deep depression is somehow less traumatic than having them kill themselves.

118

I think we are talking about several different things. As a nurse, I believe strongly in euthanasia–the ethics of it are tricky, as are the actions, but I have seen way too many wasted, rotting (literally) bodies, with no consciousness, no ability to communicate, no awareness of themselves or the world around them to believe that at times, in certain circumstances, suicide or assisted suicide is* ipso facto* wrong. To end your own life because you are facing bone cancer or similar-that is an entirely different topic, to my mind. I am speaking here of the college students who jumped out of his dorm room window because he failed a class and was afraid of what his parents would do (happened my freshman year) or the dad I mentioned, or the mom of the 13 year old. These are people without major health issues, except their depression.

That said, I think of that guy I read about in a New Yorker article a few years back. He jumped off the Golden Gate bridge (a popular spot for suicides)–and as he dropped he realized that he had no problems except one–that he had jumped. Nick Hornesby wrote a novel based on this revelation. The guy survived and now helps others who feel suicidal.

How many are like him? I’m willing to bet hundreds, if not thousands. But we’ll never know because suicide stops the dialogue. There is no retort or reply to suicide. It is the ultimate shut down of communication, that is, communication that can heal, help and comfort. It does sit and fester in those who are left behind-and they have no recourse. So they become angry, hurt, depressed, guilty. Yeah, the suicide may well be out his pain now–but he left heaping helpings for those remaining. And now we are supposed to say “it’s ok. Glad you’re better off.”? People are inherently self-centered–none more so than the suicidal–so they don’t say things like that. They say god what didn’t I do or did I do? How he could do this to me? etc.

How the hell are the survivors supposed to KNOW that the suicide was being “noble”? “I feel too much pain to carry on.” We had a pastor once whose 19 year old daughter OD’ed on aspirin. She emailed her father saying she was going to do this. His computer was down–plus, she knew he didn’t check his email every day. But he sure has that nice “fuck you, here’s your guilt for the rest of your life” message branded on his brain until he dies. Seems to me that suicides poison the well for all.
For some here it’s ok that the suicide isn’t thinking of others–but that is one of the keys to all of this. The suicidally depressed person is incapable of thinking of others–the tunnel vision has taken over. The pain has overwhelmed him/her.

But that leaves the others with a huge dilemma–how to help carry the suicidal one over this horror, to better things? IMS, I learned in nursing school that it is not the deeply, deeply depressed who commit suicide–they lack the energy to plan and execute (sorry, horrible pun). It is in the weeks after treatment, when the dust is settling, loved ones are breathing that sigh of relief, and some independence is gained that the danger is highest.

How are the “healthy” (who may well have tons of problems of their own) to know that exact time? It seems to me that a huge burden has been placed on the non-suicidal–they don’t want to lose their loved one, but have NO say. We accept tragedies like car accidents and heart attacks, unwillingly, angrily, sadly. But suicide is an option-not a destiny. That is why people respond to suicide with anger and resentment.

I know something of my own sharp blade of despair. I know something of depression. I refuse to sit by and be philosophical about this issue. It is not ok to damage others by thoughtless actions. To be clear: I am not saying that those who face debilitating illness and choose peace are categorized this way. I am speaking of those whose actions are a big Fuck You; whose actions are the impulse of the moment for a solvable/treatable problem.

119

No, it doesn’t, but don’t fret; there is no deficit of reasons why you’re an asshole, so losing any single one of them won’t make an impact.

I flatter myself to believe I am not particularly stupid, although I occasionally do foolish things— such as forgetting that you have frequently shown yourself to be too thick and/or stoned to comprehend the implications of your own statements, and engaging you as one might a rational person with all his wits about him.

Surely in one of your many bong-powered solipsist wanderings it must have occurred to you that suicide, as an act of “sovereignty,” carries with it a certain finality that other actions (like joining the Jaycees or getting a nosering) lack. That people often go through up and down cycles, and experience periods where they feel life is painful and suicide might be an appropriate escape. Why, just recently someone described his own experience to that effect— who was it, now? Oh yes:

How fortunate for all of us that in you, the “urge to survive” (a quality that in lesser beings might be mistaken for cowardice) prevented you from taking that final exit. How fortunate that the remedy you condone for other depressives is one you found unsuitable for yourself as you were the one “living a wasted life” and “disrupting the people around you.” What a happy outcome that you survived and that now your life is, as you say, actually pretty good now.

In short, how lucky you are to be a hypocrite.

120

While I stand by the general sentiment of my post, half of it was in reaction to the people before me who were saying something to the effect of “I won’t cast the first stone but…” I got tired of it. Suicide is only as inherently selfish as refusing to cut out your own heart and donate it to a stranger is selfish. In other words, the stranger has as much right to demand that you die as others have to demand that you live.

I’ll add, however, that people can commit suicide for selfish reasons, and can be an asshole about it, but it’s still within their rights to do.