I pit the weak people who kill themselves

The BBQ Pit
81

[QUOTE=DiosaBellissima]
That said, you didn’t respond to the anecdote in my post and the only reason I point that out is because it is that situation that gives me the opinion I hold. How is what he did NOT selfish? I’m genuinely asking and open to answers, but as I presently see it what he did was the height of selfishness. He may have been ill, but he did something that caused such tremendous horror, pain, and long term suffering for those around him that I just don’t see how it can be anything but utterly selfish.
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There isn’t any way for me to say if he was or wasn’t selfish. I’m not in his head. I don’t know what he was thinking about what would happen or wouldn’t. There isn’t any way of knowing without a note, and even then it’s a toss up if the person really knew.

Hell, the only thing that prevented me from committing suicide when I was in a very black phase was the idea of leaving a body behind for someone to stumble across. I
was horrified at the notion. But, like I already said, I also had reason to believe that I would get better, and hope is the thing that so many suicides simply don’t have.

Suicides are often suffering from tunnel vision. Maybe he didn’t know that she wouldn’t get the insurance. Maybe he didn’t think about who would find his body. Maybe it’s not that he knew these things but did them anyway, but that he was incapable of thinking about “Who will find my body?” Maybe he desperately needed to imagine that someone who loved him would find his body, not to horrify them but to feel that last glimmer of love, a sort of “I can be at peace with my loved one.”

We can’t know. What we can know is that he was desperate. Maybe desperate and selfish. Maybe desperate and foolish. Maybe desperate and irrational. But desperate.

Some suicides are committed with the intent to wound, to hurt or destroy the people left behind. There’s no defense for those actions.

82

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
What do people have to say, other than nasty, unproductive name-calling, to this very interesting contention by Dob?

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Dob believes with all his heart that the best interest of his family is served by him getting out of bed, going to work, making dollar, and spending time with the people under his roof.

Possible response: Dob lives in a state of confusion, constantly flipping between rage and despair depending on what is going on around him. He unable to self-regulate his mood, or can only do so with alcohol or tremendous mental effort. Living in emotional extremes his idea of appropriate responses to stress are likewise extreme. This makes him ineffective as a father–he’s either violent, drunk, or withdrawn; and useless as a husband because he’s unpredictable and unavailable. Not knowing any better, this is business as usual for him. As his symptoms worsen, even he can’t deny that there is a problem in his life–those around him are unhappy and untrusting. He is a shadow on the home, he understands that his presence is doing more harm than good. Maybe it takes days now, maybe months or years. But eventually he loses sight of any redeeming trait he once thought he had. And he knows the best answer is to remove himself from the situation. But he can’t cotton abandonment either so moving to Tibet is out of the question. No, it has to be a final solution. An appology and a self-punishment all rolled into one sweeping and irrevocable and clearly sincere action. So he hangs himself and displays his penetance though his self-inflicted agony to those who were forced to endure him for so long. Remember, Dob is so locked inside his own head that he cannot comprehend his being of benefit to the living any more than some people here can comprehend his death as being of benifit.

If you like you can add to this little sundae sprinkles of paranoia, delusion, visual and auditory hallucination and even guilt from very real memories of manic hedonism. Such a worthless piece of meat has no business drawing breath, the past can’t be undone, but the futures of the innocent can be salvaged.

83

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
If you get in an accident and are rendered incommunicado, you really do need accomplices. And I’m fully convinced they gave my mom a bit of an indetectable nudge. They have to be very careful, though. If they’re caught, it’s curtains.
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No nudge is undetectable, if you’re looking for it, but rarely do they do perform autopsies in cases where the cause of can be easily pinned on the person’s illness. I assume your mother was obviously near death already and the cause of death was listed as whatever put her in that position, not a bit more morphine “for pain control.” Back during the Terri Schaivo brouhaha we had threads where our own doctors said that responsible, caring doctors give their patients “last aid” hundreds of times a day. They don’t get caught, and if anybody suspects they bless them for their good works.

My family is there, or a bit north of there, so I’m here. :smiley:

Oh God! That whole area is so un-Chicago it’s creepy!

They all do, for me. It took a while to relearn how to drive without depth perception. Now, when I miss a dose, I can tell because I can hear my eyes blink.

84

[QUOTE=DiosaBellissima]
I do believe you have every right to do with your body what you see fit, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that the choice you make has repercussions for those around you and can therefore be incredibly inherently selfish.
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And if you say, “You have to go on living for my sake,” that’s selfish too, isn’t it?

There will be situations where the loved ones are actually better off. There will be times where Daddy being gone means that Mommy and the kids can find some peace and stability. But because we aren’t psychic, we don’t know when that would be true. We don’t know if that guy I knew was going to start physically hurting people the way his brother did. We can’t look at more than one timeline, and that sucks.

Maybe Tom (the guy from my anecdote) could have been cured someday. Maybe my ex, Mike, would have gotten better. Maybe my high school typing teacher had a great future just around the corner.

Or maybe each of them would have died the next day in a fiery car crash and no bad word would ever be said about them.

85

[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
And if you say, “You have to go on living for my sake,” that’s selfish too, isn’t it?

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But in the case of a minor child- one who you volunteered to bring into this world or at least bring into your life- they have absolutely every right to say and think that. I suppose it’s more questionable in the case of a spouse or adult children, but I fail to see how anyone could say that a child would be wrong to depend on their parent to be there for them.

But you are right that perhaps the families are better off and I think we aren’t as on different terms as is coming across, since earlier you said some (a small minority though, I’d imagine) people are just trying to hurt others with their actions. Reading through the thread, it came across to me like many here (not necessarily you) were pushing the idea that those who commit suicide are some kind of martyr for doing what they do and I was just trying to point out that often there are others that are tremendously hurt by the actions those who kill themselves take.

But an interesting point (and this is likely veering into GD territory) is where you explain that a person may have tunnel vision and therefore doesn’t think about all of the extenuating circumstances of their death. While that is a fantastic point that I certainly hadn’t considered, does ignorance (and that would be the truest definition of ignorance- the person is ignorant to their surroundings because of their present state) justify selfishness? Does their ignorance (temporary or perhaps even permanent) justify what they’ve potentially done to their children and families?

And the above isn’t snarky at all, I swear. I’m genuinely just tossing out what I’m thinking right now, curious what others think.

86

One important difference is that in the case of death rather than desertion, things like life insurance, SS dependent benefits, pensions, etc., do provide support for survivors. Most responsible parents try to set things up so that if they die untimely, it won’t cripple their kids financially.

(Yes, some life insurance policies do have “suicide clauses” that void the contract if the policyholder commits suicide, but those are usually not valid for more than two years.)

More importantly, suicide, unlike desertion, is generally not about a selfish desire to go off and do your own thing regardless of your voluntarily assumed responsibilities. Suicide for the most part is simply about not being able to take the pain anymore.

Yes, I’d agree that suicidal people who have others dependent on them should do everything they can possibly think of to help them endure their situation and go on living and avoid inflicting that pain on those who love them. No, I can’t agree that emotionally ill parents who end up committing suicide are equivalent to deadbeat dads.

87

[QUOTE=DiosaBellissima]

But an interesting point (and this is likely veering into GD territory) is where you explain that a person may have tunnel vision and therefore doesn’t think about all of the extenuating circumstances of their death. While that is a fantastic point that I certainly hadn’t considered, does ignorance (and that would be the truest definition of ignorance- the person is ignorant to their surroundings because of their present state) justify selfishness? Does their ignorance (temporary or perhaps even permanent) justify what they’ve potentially done to their children and families?

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This wasn’t addressed to me, but I’ve had experience in this area, so I’ll throw in my two cents FWIW. (Feel free to tell me to bleep off if I’m getting in the way of the discussion.)

I don’t think someone who’s suicidal ever means to be selfish. I think a selfish act would be someone deliberately thinking, “I know so-and-so would be genuinely heartbroken and devastated over my death, but bugger them,” and I don’t think suicidal people think like that. They’re not trying to screw anyone over–they just want the pain to stop.

88

[QUOTE=DiosaBellissima]
While that is a fantastic point that I certainly hadn’t considered, does ignorance (and that would be the truest definition of ignorance- the person is ignorant to their surroundings because of their present state) justify selfishness? Does their ignorance (temporary or perhaps even permanent) justify what they’ve potentially done to their children and families?
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Well, I think that it ends up, for many people, almost like someone expecting you to understand advanced cosmology before you bake cookies. In other words, it’s hard to know what you don’t know when you don’t know that you don’t know. You know? :smiley:

89

[QUOTE=Inigo Montoya]
Well I hate to paint things in black and white but either you failed to read the explanations (one for Kimstu & the other for Kalhoun) for comprehension or you’re being the asshole. Don’t forget to wipe your chin, buttface.
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My reading comprehension is second to none. The mere fact that I fail to be impressed by your excuses for post 17 and post 24 doesn’t mean I’m incapable of understanding, you arrogant little turd.

:rolleyes: You’d think everything in the **Malacandra **garden had been just beans these last forty-odd years, wouldn’t you?

90

[QUOTE=Kythereia]
This wasn’t addressed to me, but I’ve had experience in this area, so I’ll throw in my two cents FWIW. (Feel free to tell me to bleep off if I’m getting in the way of the discussion.)

I don’t think someone who’s suicidal ever means to be selfish. I think a selfish act would be someone deliberately thinking, “I know so-and-so would be genuinely heartbroken and devastated over my death, but bugger them,” and I don’t think suicidal people think like that. They’re not trying to screw anyone over–they just want the pain to stop.
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Oh, you don’t have to bugger off- you’re good people. :slight_smile:

I guess my main point is whether or not one can be selfish without the awareness that goes along with the act. To me, I think a selfish act is a selfish act, regardless of whether or not I am aware that it’s in fact selfish. Does that make sense? I’m totally babbling.

I guess our definition of selfish comes into play to. To me, a person acting selfishly isn’t thinking outside themselves at all. Deliberately attempting to hurt someone else is something else entirely- being an asshole. :wink:

jsgoddess - you’re totally right- it’s like trying to figure out which comes first, the chicken or the egg. But I think that’s where the fundamental difference is between the sides of the argument here- some of us see it as a selfish act, regardless of whether or not the person realizes what they are doing, while others like yourself are saying that it can’t be selfish if they don’t actualize that selfishness.

Oh, and jsgoddess - you’re good people too!

91

[QUOTE=DiosaBellissima]
Oh, and jsgoddess - you’re good people too!
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The feeling is mutual!

92

[QUOTE=DiosaBellissima]
Oh, you don’t have to bugger off- you’re good people. :slight_smile:

I guess my main point is whether or not one can be selfish without the awareness that goes along with the act. To me, I think a selfish act is a selfish act, regardless of whether or not I am aware that it’s in fact selfish. Does that make sense? I’m totally babbling.

I guess our definition of selfish comes into play to. To me, a person acting selfishly isn’t thinking outside themselves at all. Deliberately attempting to hurt someone else is something else entirely- being an asshole. :wink:

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Thanks–so’s you. :wink:

I think I get what you’re saying. I don’t know… for me, it felt like I really just couldn’t think about anybody else’s problems or how they’d feel, like I wasn’t even the one putting the blinders on. The conscious brain knew that it would be a painful and terrible thing, and that my family and friends would miss me, but the emotional response was a knee-jerk. And getting some perspective was part of the repair process–not the whole process, but part of it.

(I know that makes no sense now…)

93

[QUOTE=Kimstu]
(Yes, some life insurance policies do have “suicide clauses” that void the contract if the policyholder commits suicide, but those are usually not valid for more than two years.)

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Thanks, Kimstu. I don’t have much to add here, but I work for a large life insurance company, and Kimstu’s absolutely right here. In nearly all states in the U.S., the suicide exclusion clause is good for only 2 years - if you commit suicide within two years of purchasing the policy, it won’t pay any benefits. After those 2 years, the insurer will and must pay (provided that there weren’t any misrepresentations when the policy was taken out). Just wanted to clear that up.

94

[QUOTE=MTRG]
I realized that starting this in the pit was going to go this way.

Really, I did not intend to hurt anybody by bringing up a bad topic.

And FTR, I have often thought that my (self) anger toward these indidviduals has been very selfish. This is what prompted my (self) need for understanding.
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Appreciated. But…my grandmother killed herself 38 years ago. My mother was 24 and I was a small child. About the only time I’ve ever seen my mother get angry at a near stranger was when someone said “suicide is selfish.” For my grandmother, she truly believed her actions were necessarily for the health of the family - her illness had drove them near into bankruptcy, it was affecting the lives of her husband and children. I don’t know the details of my grandmother’s final communication to her family, just that she had a purposeful final communication with each of them - and that it wasn’t a selfish act.

Suicide is very sad. Depression is a terrible illness. But don’t blame the victim anymore than the survivors.

95

Okay, so what if I am/do all these things but instead of killing myself I walk away to Tibet. Would you consider me a loser? Or Brave for taking that step to fix a bad situation?

And you cant say I “wouldn’t” move to Tibet, because that was the whole point of my post. What is the difference between being a loser bum, and a brave suicide?

96

In the example I gave, moving to Tibet is escaping whereas the suicide is full accountability. On the part of the decider anyway. What decent man would choose escape over accountability?

97

Right, but I am not wondering what the decider is thinking. I was asking why some folks on here think suicide is not cowardly, but leaving to Tibet would be.

98

[QUOTE=Dob]

*The only exception on this is for those terminally ill and in pain. I think suicide in those cases is a mercy.
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Suicidal is terminally ill. And in pain. So what’s your point?

99

[QUOTE=Kythereia]
I don’t think someone who’s suicidal ever means to be selfish. I think a selfish act would be someone deliberately thinking, “I know so-and-so would be genuinely heartbroken and devastated over my death, but bugger them,” and I don’t think suicidal people think like that. They’re not trying to screw anyone over–they just want the pain to stop.
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This reminds me of a couple I used to know. I still know the female half.

Couple “X” lived together for about 4 years, got married, and lived together for another 3. At about year 5 Mr. X moved a man into the home. The man was an alcoholic who had lost his job, was about 25 years older than the Xs, and served as a father figure for Mr. X who had lost his own father at a young age. Bully for Mr. X. However, Alcoholic Man (AM) was not a good influence on the household. He was very abusive to Mrs. X. He threw things at her and called her names. He said she was stupid, ignorant and a bad wife. Mr. X witnessed all of these things but refused to intervene. When Mrs. X suggested that AM needed to leave, Mr. X wouldn’t hear of it.

So, being a sensible, sane woman, Mrs. X. moved out. Mr. X begged her to come back, but would not think of putting out AM. Mrs. X refused. Mr. X’s parting comment to Mrs. X was “You’ll regret that you’ve done this to me! I’ll get you if it’s the last thing I do.”

Well, it was. Mr. X went to Mrs. X’s new home (she had given him a key) and shot himself in the head with a shotgun. He left a note with words to the effect “This is your fault Mrs. X. I hope you feel guilty for the rest of your life.”

Now, obviously I can’t get into Mr. X’s head. He obviously had a lot if issues that he couldn’t work out. However, I can’t think of any possible interpretation of his actions other than he was being a selfish, rotten bastard - much as he had when Mrs. X still lived with him.

I’m sorry - just because a person kills themselves it doesn’t make them a martyr. It doesn’t mean that they were a poor, tortured soul who had no choice but to end it all. That is probably true in many cases, but some people who kill themselves do so because they are assholes. They were assholes in life, they are assholes in death, and they deserve nothing but scorn.

Just as a little conclusion, since Mr. X’s stunt, Mrs. X has slid into a profound clinical depression (despite never being depressed before). She is constantly seen by professionals and takes medication as well as receiving counseling.

100

[QUOTE=Dob]
Right, but I am not wondering what the decider is thinking. I was asking why some folks on here think suicide is not cowardly, but leaving to Tibet would be.
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Why wouldn’t you wonder what The Decider is thinking? He’s the one taking an action based on information concealed from everyone else. maybe it comes down to judging action rather than judging motive?