I pray to every form of God that you aren’t suggesting that smoking may actually be BENEFICIAL for pregnancy, because I may lose my mind.
<hijack>
Funny, I read that as irony. Self-deprecating musing. Some of this thread criticizes the (perceived stupid) choices made in having a baby. Some people (not I, nor am I trying to say that Rune is saying this either, I should point out) might argue that having a baby under almost any circumstances is a bad decision; irresponsible and irrational, in fact. And yet, we’re all the result of exactly that decision (stupid or no). If so, then the actual situation is in direct contradiction to the perceived situation.
Sorta like the scenario in Hitchhiker’s Guide, where we’re all descendent from the planet of hair-dressers. I’m kinda amused by the idea, I have to admit.
</hijack>
Lord no!
I should look up some statistics though, because it seems that pregnancy problems and birth defects aren’t declining that much, considering how much more we know about maintaining good health than we did 40 years ago. It’s puzzling.
Well, but the bottom line is, if we see what smoke and tar do to the adult body, surely filtering that smoke and tar into a developing infant body can’t be anything but bad. Cripes, they gave me a list at the fertility clinic of things I have to stop eating and doing and it’s so long that I might as well just go to bed for the next year.
Better safe than sorry is the watchword I suppose.
What got me about this:
was not that you seemed to be bashing the Chinese, but that for decades now, China has been rewarding married couples for limiting themselves to only one child (and, IIRC, giving heavy fines to those familes with multiple children). Pay attention, man!
As far as the OP goes - I don’t know either of you enough to judge. I will, however, point out that she’s only 18. This is not to say that all 18-year olds are shiftless and lazy and stupid, or even that most 18-year olds are shiftless, lazy, and stupid. But many are, and some of them really do grow out of it. I don’t know if I’d assume she’s going to be this way forever quite yet. Wait until she’s 25 or so. You can usually tell by 25.
For Og’s sake, pick another dubious behavior. Anything that doesn’t involve inhaling damaging fumes. For a CF’er, firsthand smoke is a hundred times worse than secondhand smoke.
Have you tried chewing tobacco? It’s a thousand times less damaging to someone in your situation.
QtM, MD
Parent of a CF patient
Physician to other CF patients
Oh bullshit.
Having a baby when you are eighteen, unmarried, underemployed, undereducated, addicted to smoking, stuck in a precarious financial situation, poorly housed and in trouble with the law is yes indeed a bad, irresponsible and irrational decision. Her poor child is likely to suffer all kinds of serious consequences as a result of her badly timed choice to get rid of the birth control.
That’s hardly the same thing as deciding to procreate when you are thirty, happily married, gainfully employed, fully educated, addiction free and have no financial worries. Having a much wanted child under those circumstances is neither irresponsible nor irrational.
Children are a joy. But much of the joy of having them is knowing when to get pregnant. People who can’t figure that out are people who tend to evoke little sympathy from those of us who can.
As I said earlier, I don’t know if this particular young woman has clinical depression.
But there are many kinds of depression and experiencing one of them does not mean that you understand all of them. There are some so bad that you stop talking and have difficulty walking. You are in a constant state of confusion. You can lose track of where you are and why you are there. You can disappear inside yourself and there is no outside in which to move and no feelings to make it matter. It can be terminal and it can be permanently debilitating and is recognized by Social Security as such.
CanvasShoes, I think it’s great that you had the courage and determination to pull yourself up and prevail over your problems and that you continue to do so. (Most of us have more strength than we know, don’t we?) But your hard times are not the same as someone else’s hard times. We just never know someone else’s full story. We never know why there is a "disconnect’ and an irresponsible attitude. But I do assume they haven’t had the breaks that I have. Maybe they didn’t have a Daddy who taught them the value of work and of giving back to the society. Maybe they were undermined by their teachers. None of it is an excuse, but it may be a reason.
I know that lots of my students had babies to have someone to love them. Sure it was a dumb idea and selfish. But is was terribly sad too.
One time a girl who would probably have been labelled “white trash” here tell me that she wished I had been her mama. I loved her a lot. I knew her story. I wished I had been her mama too.
Here’s a clue: I don’t disagree with you. I was commenting on a possible use of irony (which I’m entertained by) versus sarcasm (which is meant to be cutting). The rest of the explication is merely describing an extreme view that may help someone see it as irony.
Evidently, in your case, I failed. Sorry about that.
I don’t believe Jerry Springer guests represent any more reality than WWF wrestling. And from what I’ve seen of Cops, yeah, but all those people are either stoned or drunk. I think anyone who watches these shows must have a need to feel superior.
No one deserves to be labeled trash, white or black. Those who are unfortunate enough to have been raised poorly with little confidence in themselves to bother to invest their time and energy for a better future, and rely on the immediate gratifications of alcohol, drugs, and sex with whomever, should be pitied, not pitted.
Does anyone seriously believe that her child is going to have a fair chance? What are the odds that her child is going to at least finish high school ?
Since you also wrote:
You aren’t particularly good at either irony or sarcasm. Not all decisions to conceive are stupid.
Look. Since you take it as unqualified fact that “children are a joy”, you can reach no other conclusion. In explanation of my appropriate use of irony, the inclusion of “(stupid or no)” was meant to indicate that no one has to agree with the view. However, if you accept that there may be someone who feels that having children under any circumstances is stupid, then the irony is established. For instance, there’s no denying that a child is a drain on a person’s resources. A burden in many ways. A totally selfish person who felt that way to the exclusion of seeing any benefits would see having a child as stupid under all circumstances.
Obviously, the vast majority of people feel that the joy of having children outweighs the burden. Also as obvious (to me, at least), you need to bone up on your literary devices, try to find your inner child, and go to your happy place.
To those of you jumping to the conclusion I have “diagnosed” WTG with depression, I would point out the following from my post:
“My guess would be she has very little self-esteem, has probably been raised by people who were difficult on her, and that she likely suffers from clinical depression.”
and:
“She is displaying almost classic textbook symptoms of clinical depression, and truly, from her point of view and the way her brain is working right now, she has very little ability to live her life differently, will-power or no.”
Notice I said “likely” and “almost.” Nowhere did I state as an absolute fact that she suffers from depression. Still, it would not surprise me one iota to learn she does.
And thanks to Zoe for saying so eloquently to CanvasShoes that her experiences and abilities do not necessarily apply to everyone else.
Apparently I need to remind you of what you actually said:
(bolding mine)
“I just have to second everything CanvasShoes said.”
“WTG’s behavior is not “textbook clinical depressed” behavior it’s textbook stupid lost teenager behavior.”
Based on these statements it appeared to me that you were agreeing with “everything” CanvasShoes said, and that you were speaking of WTG, not some anonymous “example”.
I took you at your word and responded accordingly.
Nope…
And that’s a great deal of my point, and the point of several others here. Again, it is NOT the color of their skin. And as I mentioned in my first post. The term “white trash” itself has had dozens of pit threads.
There is a huge difference between poor and white, and purposely ignorant and trashy. Since several of the pit threads pitting the term 'white trash" I personally have resorted to using the term “springerite”.
At any rate, as to my “bloodline”? I’m a mutt, like a lot of white Americans. I’m english, scottish and scandinavian, and somewhere way back in my ancestor’s history, someone had a torrid affair with a cherokee indian, as there is a drop or two of that in my bloodline as well.
And I grew up VERY poor white. Not to mention raised by parents who only made it to HS graduation. Someone on these boards, I think it was monstro IIRC summed it up thusly:
“Ain’t no one so poor they can’t pick up a broom”. My bloodline, or lack thereof had absolutely ZERO to do with how successful I am. Not that I’m anything more than merely middle class now. I took my two hands, and two legs, and used them to get here. PERIOD.
And people who are pitting the girl in the OP have pointed out the difference in what we’re talking about with several examples. Of COURSE people make mistakes, and yeah, sometimes they need guidance, and even help to get over that hump. But there are those who take that help and guidance, and use it, along with their OWN motor power to better themselves, and tnose who lazily look to others to take care of them, and expect it.
And THAT is the crucial difference between poor white, and springerites.
Yes, I agree that there are reasons that someone may behave badly. What I don’t agree with is the tendency by some to “there there poor dear” them when they DO behave badly.
When you’re a little one, and you burn your fingers on a stove, it HURTS like hell, not just when you do it, but for a good deal of the time you’re healing as well. But you sure as HELL don’t go around touching stoves anymore.
Back “in the day” there was a similar “hot stove” out in society. That of public opinion, you didn’t need to burn your own fingers to feel the shame and disapproval when a young unmarried girl got herself “in the family way”. So basically what we’ve done, is to not only take the incentive away from NOT making this particular foolish choice, but we’ve compounded it by making it glamorous (all the movie stars who have babies out of wedlock, and that’s a whole 'NOTHER can of worms), or at least attention worthy.
What happens today when a teen gets pregnant? She is showered with attention, from her friends, what family she has, society in general. And there are no real consequences. Pregnant? No problem, now I can go on welfare and not have to work. And while it’s certainly not the lap of luxury, it’s still not suffering consequences dire enough to deter many young women.
That is sad that they do that. But there are many young people who have similar bad family lives that do NOT compound the problem by getting themselves into trouble.
I’m not saying “don’t help them”. I’m saying that the 'help" we give them needs to demand that they help themselves, it needs to demand that they work, that they do what is necessary to better themselves, and if they refuse to do that through behaving as a “springerite” then they are being purposely ignorant and need a BIGGER kick in the ass, not coddling.
Because if she IS clinically depressed then that’s an easy “put her in this box” categorization that leaves her free of any responsibility.
I know plenty PLENTY of folks with low self esteem and clinical depression who are still able to make correct choices in their life. It’s not a catch all get out of jail free card.
Yeesh, I never expected this much feedback. :o
Update: guess who called off work today? :rolleyes: She is now on the verge of being fired. Actually she was going to be fired several weeks ago. We have a point system in place wherein if you accumulate eight points you’re gone. Most employees don’t get close to eight but she managed it in two months. When she found out she was gonna get canned she threw a fit and said she’d never been informed of the point system. The boss then knocked her points back down to zero. That was about two weeks ago and she’s up to seven and a half points again. Her excuse this time was that her sister was having a “tubal pregnancy” (tubal ligation?) and was screaming for her to be there. Pardon me if I doubt that as she’s used a myriad of excuses in the past. (One long-ago WT co-worker called off with the excuse that her mother had died, which turned out to be not true - how fucking pathetic is that? Nothing, apparently, is sacred with these types.)
As far as her being immature, depressed, or deprived, I just don’t think that’s the case. I’ve worked with a LOT of these types over the last twenty years and they’re all the same. I could tell you some stories, believe me. One WT (of the first order) was actually so stupid as to bring a loaded gun into work to show it off. He was on parole at the time and wasn’t even supposed to HAVE a gun. :wally Yes, he was fired.
I know all this ranting sounds cruel, but frankly I’m tired of picking up the slack for them. And that’s what kills me. This girl is always scheduled EASY shifts (she’s part-time). It’s not that tough! Get with the fucking program. 'Nuff said!
You are of course, correct. It’s a filthy habit anyway so screw it. The odd thing is, I don’t even miss it when I’m not around it (so it shouldn’t be that big a deal to quit, which I’ve been thinking about doing anyway). As for my CF, I recently went to a new doctor (my old one died some years ago) for a non-CF related problem. He was amazed when I told him I hadn’t been to a doctor in almost five years and that I don’t take any medication or treatment for it. He mentioned that I may have a variant? Thing is, I don’t really think about the CF as it doesn’t affect my day to day routine. Kind of an out of sight, out of mind thing I guess. However, I know others aren’t so lucky. Hope your child is doing okay. 
If you believe that you are too precious to work around so much white trash (and it sounds like you work with a lot of them), and you are so tired of picking up their slack, why don’t you get another job? Because it’s easier to come on here and bitch about it?
Well, yes, actually it is. Isn’t that what the Pit is for? 
Nice to see you’re living up to your name, though. 