[QUOTE=Foxy40]
He has taken a role that he can chose to break at any time by picking up and walking out the door. If he wanted to be this child’s stepfather, he should have married her mother before he took on this role. Not that he couldn’t walk out in that case but at least there was a legal commitment and a legal obligation to parent this child.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t believe there’s a legal obligation to parent unless he adopts.
[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Where is this “edge of puberty” thing coming from? The MEDIAN age of puberty in the US is 12.5. She’s very likely no more on the edge of puberty than a newborn is on the edge of skipping.
[/QUOTE]
According to this article, it’s not nearly as unlikely as one might think:
I don’t have experience in this, but my husband does with his ex - he helped raise her daughter. When I told him about this thread, he agreed with just about everyone who said “don’t even go there” - it’s not a good idea. I’d agree. Yes, maybe some of us have “attitudes”, but frankly they’re based in reality. I really don’t think a 10.5 year old girl has no business sleeping in a bed with an adult man, stepfather or not. If nothing else, this is asking for trouble - not everyone would believe you if you were ever accused of any impropriety, you know.
WhyNot, while that may be the physical age of puberty or whatever, you have to admit that girls especially are “growing up” a whole lot faster than those numbers - I’ve seen eleven year old girls who are more - er - “wordly” than I was at 16, kwim?
Since I’m obviously making a mess out of what I’m trying to say, I’ll just go withm "I agree with what bobkitty said. 
You know, I enjoy cuddling in bed with my wife every night. Why do we as a society accept that my desire for physical contact with my wife is normal and healthy, but if I cuddled a child it would be perverted and disgusting?
Children don’t lose their need for hugs and kisses and physical affection when they start kindergarden. They don’t magically regain that need for physical affection on their wedding day. Children and teenagers need physical affection just as much as adults do, or more. How many teenagers begin sexual activity much too early simply because they crave physical affection, and society tells them the only non-perverted way to get it is to be having sexual intercourse?
[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Where is this “edge of puberty” thing coming from? The MEDIAN age of puberty in the US is 12.5. She’s very likely no more on the edge of puberty than a newborn is on the edge of skipping.
[/QUOTE]
I got my period at 9, and had a real-live 32B rack by the end of the 5th grade. Median means half are above AND that half are below. While its certainly possible that puberty is some ways off, I’d hardly call it impossible or even unlikely that she is nearing puberty.
[QUOTE=Foxy40]
He has taken a role that he can chose to break at any time by picking up and walking out the door. If he wanted to be this child’s stepfather, he should have married her mother before he took on this role. Not that he couldn’t walk out in that case but at least there was a legal commitment and a legal obligation to parent this child.
[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Missy2U]
WhyNot, while that may be the physical age of puberty or whatever, you have to admit that girls especially are “growing up” a whole lot faster than those numbers - I’ve seen eleven year old girls who are more - er - “wordly” than I was at 16, kwim?
[/QUOTE]
Sure, and I have a 13 year old goddaughter who hasn’t developed breasts, doesn’t menstruate, honestly thinks boys are disgusting and has the emotional maturity of a wet dishrag. Her 11 year old sister, OTOH, makes grown men’s heads spin before they throw up a little in their mouths for looking at an 11 year old like that, and her emotional maturity is such that I’d trust her with my toddler and my stove in a minute.
My point was one of statistics, not specifics. As only two people who have posted to this thread know this girl, they’re the only ones who know where her specific development is. And, incidentally, both of them feel that she’s just fine with this behavior and that it is not inappropriate. Could they both be wrong? Yes, of course. But, again, statistically speaking, it’s more likely that this girl is still more than a year or two away from puberty. I’m just wondering why several posters assume she’s a statistical outlier suffering from early, though not precocious, puberty. Yes, median means half are below, but most of those below are still bunched up around the 12 year mark. cite
The way I read that site, over 80% of girls have begun to develop breasts by age 10, with the median being around 9.5.
[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Where is this “edge of puberty” thing coming from? The MEDIAN age of puberty in the US is 12.5. She’s very likely no more on the edge of puberty than a newborn is on the edge of skipping.
[/QUOTE]
The median age of the onset of menses (the standard by which most research I’ve seen judges puberty) is 12.5, but the 1997 Herman-Giddens study* showed that mean age of breast development is 8.87 (African-American)/9.96 years (Caucasian), and mean age of pubic hair development is 8.78/10.51 years. Now, the OP doesn’t go into how developed his stepdaughter is, but it’s certainly possible that she’s beginning to show signs of secondary sexual characteristics, and it’s also possible that the hormonal changes associated with puberty are beginning to kick in.
Lemur866, I don’t think anyone here will argue with the idea that children need physical affection. The issue here isn’t whether or not it’s right or wrong, it’s about what are appropriate boundaries with a child that you do not have physical or legal ties to. Of course there is an emotional bond between the OP and his stepdaughter, and of course the Best Case Scenario is that she be treated the same as a biological child would be, but the reality is that’s not the case and there are some people who would make A Big Hairy Freakin’ Deal out of the situation if they heard about it.
Look at it this way. Say your best friends in the world have a 10 year old daughter. You’ve known these people for years, have a great relationship, hang out at their place every day, take their daughter to the park, got to PTA meetings, etc. Fully involved in their lives, love all of them like your own family. Would you feel comfortable sleeping in the same bed as their daughter? You may, but can you see where it may raise some suspicions among people who might not know about your relationship with the family? It’s not fair, sure, but it’s where society is right now. Does it need to change? Perhaps. But the fact remains it is what it is, and OPs like this one wouldn’t exist if everyone thought it’s a good thing to cuddle with kids who aren’t your “own.”
There was a thread here recently where first-time/new parents talked about how the dad was uncomfortable at first changing a baby girl.. how society has made such a fuss about molestation that it paralyzes even biological parents. Now imagine how difficult it is for a step parent, ESPECIALLY one that doesn’t have the teeny-tiny legal protection offered by marriage to the biological parent. I just think that folks should err on the side of caution in such cases.
And Missy2U.. thanks!
[sub]*I’m pulling from my human development lecture notes, which are in front of me because I’m doing a training in two weeks on child/adolescent development, and I’m too darn lazy to look up a cite right now, but the article should be easy to find.[/sub]
[QUOTE=bobkitty]
The median age of the onset of menses (the standard by which most research I’ve seen judges puberty) is 12.5, but the 1997 Herman-Giddens study* showed that mean age of breast development is 8.87 (African-American)/9.96 years (Caucasian), and mean age of pubic hair development is 8.78/10.51 years. Now, the OP doesn’t go into how developed his stepdaughter is, but it’s certainly possible that she’s beginning to show signs of secondary sexual characteristics, and it’s also possible that the hormonal changes associated with puberty are beginning to kick in.
[/QUOTE]
Right, that’s how I read the site I cited, too. That it’s very possible she is exhibiting secondary sexual characteristics, far less likely she’s menstruating, and just as possible, if not a bit more possible than either of those, that she’s not showing any signs of puberty at all yet. Of course, we have to agree on a definition of “puberty”, then. Are breast buds pubescent? I’ve seen toddlers with enough fat on their chests to qualify, not to mention middle aged men.
But, to open a whole 'nother kettle of fish, someone did mention how hurtful and potentially damaging it is for pubescent girls to suddenly be physically rejected by their paternal parental units (which, legalities aside, it sounds like the OP is) just as they enter a very difficult and confusing time of life. I agree with this, and don’t really think her puberty status is relevant, unless it’s causing the OP to get arousal erections when she’s in bed with him, which I agree would be icky to the max. But that’s not what he’s reporting at all.
I’m not saying she can’t be pubescent, I’m saying we don’t *know *if she’s pubescent, nor do we know if it’s relevant. Her parents haven’t told us one way or the other. I’m just surprised that those who brought it up assume the worst, that’s all.
I do not see a problem with it.
I have a great relationship with my Dad and probably still came to him for nightmare comfort into my early teens.
I even remember curling up (on the covers while he was under) after my parents’ divorce and I was going through PTSD with horrific nightmares, when I was 18 and living at home.
Sometimes you just need your Dad. Nothing sexual or nasty about it.
That said, be careful, other people do have a problem with it and you don’t need that problem.
So is the problem that the OP is a borderline child-molester trying to justify himself, is the problem that he’ll traumatize his stepdaughter because she won’t develop independently, or is the problem that you all have decided that expression of affection between an adult and a child is perverted?
Who’s the pervert here? The OP, the daughter, or the people screaming he’s a molester?
Of course I wouldn’t sleep in the same bed with a friend’s 10 year old daughter, unless other adults were present the whole time. Last time I visited my wife’s sister, I told my wife I didn’t want to be alone in the same room as my sister-in-law’s stepdaughter (to make the relationship clear, a man had a daughter. That man divorced the mother of the daughter, but had custody of the daughter. That man later married the sister of my wife. Convoluted, I know). Anyway, the girl was 11 years old and clearly STARVED for physical attention. So I didn’t want to be alone with her, EVER, because of how things could be misinterpreted. I was happy to hug her, or have her sit next to me, but I don’t want to go to prison because a lonely 11 year old got a crush on me. Anyway, given this girl’s actions I’ll be surprised if she doesn’t end up pregnant before she turns 16.
My point is that this girl’s desire for hugs and physical closeness with other human beings is perfectly normal and perfectly healthy, and what’s perverted is that we label her perfectly normal and perfectly healthy emotional needs as criminal. I agree that if I satisfied MY perfectly normal and perfectly healthy need for non-sexual physical closeness with her, it would be improper. But the other way around? This kid is very likely going to end up acting out sexually simply because the adults in her life are unable to meet her normal emotional needs. Now how is an unplanned teenage pregnancy going to fit in with creating a healthy adult independence?
Innocence is as innocence does. If nothing untoward happened, what’s the issue? Many of the objections seem to be variations on the theme, “Well, it looks bad.” But who cares? We don’t actually have models in this country that prescribe to a nicety how X should behave toward Y in circumstance Z. There’s a wide range of behaviors that’s acceptable, and I see nothing unacceptable about what **NobleBaron **did. As to the notion that kids at the edge of puberty (whatever that happens to be) shouldn’t do as your step-daughter did, I will say that these notions are just that – opinions, not laws of nature.
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac]
Innocence is as innocence does. If nothing untoward happened, what’s the issue? Many of the objections seem to be variations on the theme, “Well, it looks bad.” But who cares? We don’t actually have models in this country that prescribe to a nicety how X should behave toward Y in circumstance Z. There’s a wide range of behaviors that’s acceptable, and I see nothing unacceptable about what **NobleBaron **did. As to the notion that kids at the edge of puberty (whatever that happens to be) shouldn’t do as your step-daughter did, I will say that these notions are just that – opinions, not laws of nature.
[/QUOTE]
I think the problem is the same as with my hubby, he is a hockey coach. Some of the kids he coaches are from broken homes and need a father figure and ask for private coachig time, or time to go over drills , or even some just need a ride to the occasional practice as mom has to work.
He can’t do it.
Even though nothing untoward hwould happen he can’t put himself in a position where he could even be accused of anything.
It’s sad, and some kids are going to end up losing out, but if it protects one kid from potential danger it’s worth it.
Right?
Except his actions aren’t “protecting the kids”, but rather protecting your husband.
The “if it protects one kid” meme is ridiculous. How many toddlers drown in buckets every year? A surprisingly large number. If we could save one toddler from drowing, wouldn’t banning buckets be worth it?
We aren’t protecting kids by this child molestation panic, we’re going to create a generation of confused and traumatized and lonely kids who are going to act out in confused and traumatized and lonely ways. If we could protect one kid from acting out in a confused and traumatized and lonely way, wouldn’t it be worth it?
[QUOTE=Poysyn]
I think the problem is the same as with my hubby, he is a hockey coach. Some of the kids he coaches are from broken homes and need a father figure and ask for private coachig time, or time to go over drills , or even some just need a ride to the occasional practice as mom has to work.
He can’t do it.
Even though nothing untoward hwould happen he can’t put himself in a position where he could even be accused of anything.
It’s sad, and some kids are going to end up losing out, but if it protects one kid from potential danger it’s worth it.
Right?
[/QUOTE]
I am not sure it is worth it. It seems like society is now set in such a way that an adult cannot help a child out without a chance of impropriety being assumed. This is a very bad thing for society and extra tough on Men as we are of course all assumed predators.
My late BIL was a teacher in a very poor town and he actually lived in the same town. He would help many of these kids out. These were male and OMG, female teenagers. When he died the students he helped were able to contribute to a full page article in the paper about what a difference he made. He was loved and respected because he made the extra effort that today 25 years later, we are conditioned to be afraid to make.
BTW: He also coached a Girl’s Softball team.
Jim
I know plenty of parents who automatically get panicky when there’s a male adult involved with kids, EVEN WHEN THEY KNOW BETTER. One otherwise completely normal friend temporarily lost her marbles when her son wanted to get into Boy Scouts, because, “I don’t like the idea of my son camping out with some GUY.”
Men have coached little league, been scout leaders, been priests, mentors, stepfathers, uncles and family friends forever. And some of those men have abused their positions/relationships and molested kids. No argument. The vast majority haven’t.
I can understand being protective and cautious. I can even understand jumping to conclusions. I just think it’s sad that so many decent guys have to bear the consequences of what the jerks do.
noblebaron, the “needs autonomy” line is used in reference even to infants and it’s not an unusual line of reasoning. So probably you have never had children of your own(?) With infants and toddlers, there’s this whole debate about “the family bed” and whether it’s a good thing or a bad thing. The ones against the family bed argue that a child needs to learn to go to sleep and settle down by him/herself, develop a sense of autonomy, etc. The ones in favor of the family bed argue that it promotes closeness and a sense of security.
So the remark by your mother-in-law isn’t necessarily a veiled reference to child molesting. She may just be using that anti-family-bed argument.
That being said, it sounds to me like you have a good relationship with your stepdaughter and with your fiance, and everything fine with all of you. And also from my point of view (not that it matters), I think everything’s fine.
But I also think that your stepdaughter is starting to arrive at the age where it will become inappropriate for have that sort of close physical contact. I’m not saying she’s at that point now. Just that it will come within the next year or two. Also, especially once she reaches puberty, if people other than your mother-in-law hear that she sleeps all night in bed with you, someone may go nuts about it and be a lot less polite than your mother-in-law.
So basically, I think you’re OK and everything is fine, but it’s probably time to start thinking of a plan to wean your stepdaughter away from the sleeping together thing.
[QUOTE=Foxy40]
Not only do I think you shouldn’t be in bed with this child, I don’t think you should be living in the same house until you marry her mother. You are not her step father. You are the person sleeping with her mother which gives you no rights at all. I am appalled that you think it is okay to be in this child’s life for three years, have sex with her mother, put her in YOUR bed without any legal commitment.
… Be married to the mother for three years and I may have a different opinion. For now, get the hell out of that little girls bed.
[/QUOTE]
Best intentions of the OP aside, I agree that this is the one fact that gets under my skin about the whole thing; three years you’ve been engaged? That seems cruel when the child would no doubt enefit greatly from some more security in her life.
In the interests of honesty, I live w/ my boyfriend right now and neither of us have any children, anywhere.
[QUOTE=ratatoskK]
So the remark by your mother-in-law isn’t necessarily a veiled reference to child molesting. She may just be using that anti-family-bed argument.
[/QUOTE]
And this kind of thing is highly subject to generational bias and trends. I have had friends whose mothers expressed horror at the idea of even having an infant sleeping with their parents…not because of molestation, but because the ideas about what is best for babies changes. The idea many people have now that babies benefit from the security is foreign to many people of the previous generation, who fear that the child will have emotional stunting or some such.
Even my own very well educated mother (has a PhD in child development, of all things), and who breastfed her own babies, was surprised, if not *exactly * disapproving, that I nursed my daughter for a WHOLE YEAR (which is actually on the short side among my circle of friends)!
Although I tend to be on the side that says maybe you should consider breaking off this behavior at your daughter’s age, on the other hand, you need to use your best judgement, and maybe it would be smart not to talk other family members about it.