What’s unstable about being together for three years? They’ve created a secure environment. What does marriage have to do with him sleeping in the same bed with a child?
Caveat: this does depend on the state they live in.
As long as they are not married he has absolutely no rights to the stepdaughter. If something happened to mom, he is not guaranteed custody (even if it’s spelled out in her will). He cannot take her to the ER if something happens to her. He cannot enroll her in school, and in some states/districts he cannot participate in her schooling (IE, no attending parent-teacher meetings, no signing report cards or permission slips). In some states he cannot make legal provisions for her if something were to happen to him (IE, if he wants to put her as a beneficiary on a life insurance policy, or start a bank account for her future schooling, he can’t), nor can he put her on his medical insurance should she need it. His presence in the home negatively impacts their ability to receive government funding should anything happen that requires it.
Now, certainly a lot of this stuff the stepdaughter wouldn’t be aware of. But still, it’s hard to say you’ve created a stable environment if the only person you see as a father figure wouldn’t be able to do a damn thing if something happened to your mom. My stepkids were ultra-paranoid about getting hurt whenever they were left alone with either their stepdad(s) (there have been several) or me, because they knew we couldn’t consent to any medical treatment if something happened, and their father and I were married. So yeah, I can see where a child may feel a little uneasy if they think they could lose their parent (same as a biological child).
And WhyNot, I don’t think he needs to reject her at all, and I agree that a complete reversal of his behavior could have a negative impact. I just think he needs to tone it down a smidge, like the examples I gave, or limiting her sleeping in the bed to times when mom is there as well.
What Jodi said. Except that my opinion wouldn’t be exactly the same if you were her natural father.
It all sounds innocent enough to me, noblebaron, and I guess the most important part is how you, your daughter and your betrothed feel about it. If you really want to know whether there are dangers involved, you probably should consult one or two child development specialists. Talk to somebody you know and trust whose expertise is the minds of children of that age. Don’t ask a pediatrician – they’re trained to treat children’s bodies, insofar as a child’s body is different from the adult body it will grow into. Talk to a child psychologist.
I applaud your attempt to get feedback by posting, but this crowd will give you every answer under the sun, and it still might not be useful information. (All of the answers will, of course, be heartfelt, honest and well-intended.)
Gasp! Do you know where that hand has been?!?
Didn’t say anything about ‘unstable’, just (for lack of a better word) more stable. My humble opinion is that the daughter would feel even more secure than she may now if he and her mother were married. I have only the observed experiences of my brother’s family to go by, not my own. Marriage means a lot to the ‘black and white absolutes’ mind of a child, and maybe if they were married she’d cling less and be stronger on her own more. This may mean she wouldn’t feel as strongly about needing to sleep next to the OP, who at this point is her mom’s long-term fiance’ with no biological or legal relation to her.
How do we know the child feels the environment is secure? Wouldn’t this indicate a leaning otherwise?
Well, I suppose some of that may be true, but I lived with Mr. K for seven years of Kalhoun Jr’s minor years, and the issue never came up. I’d hardly call it an “insecure” situation. Problematic, maybe…in some situations. But as you said, the kid is rarely aware (or gives a shit) about the paperwork stuff. I would be more concerned with how it appears to others, in the OP’s case. As I said earlier, I don’t see anything sinister, but someone else might.
I don’t think it’s good for a 10.5 year old kid to be sleeping with an adult, be it father, uncle, stepfather, grandfather, or the female counterpart of any of those roles. I’m against co-sleeping period. I think parents need a place to be away from the kids to concentrate on their needs, to discuss issues, to make love if and when they feel like it, etc. I also side with the autonomy line of thinking. There are a million other ways to express affection and develop an emotional bond.
Obviously, when they’re little you have more demands on your time. You will have instances when they wake up crying and you may have to bring them into bed to console them (though I never found this to be necessary). They wake up, get their bearings, you reinforce that they’re safe, get them a drink of water, and tuck them back in.
I am a therapist who works from time to time with kids who have been abused (Child Protective cases). Noblebaron, I don’t know you, your fiancee, or your fiancee’s child, so I can only really respond to what you have written (which of course, is just a few paragraphs on a public message board).
First of all, I agree with everything Bobkitty had to say. Bobkitty, I think that you are a person who knows his stuff, you seem experienced and you are being very diplomatic. I am going to be honest and say, Noblebaron, you’re OP gave me a weird feeling. The original title you chose, the way you describe your interactions with your fiancee’s daughter, and your explanations and justifications made me feel strange. I am not saying that you did anything wrong, I am not accusing you of anything, I am just saying that it made me feel uneasy and raises a great deal of questions in my mind- not just about you, but about the kid, her mom, and y’alls relationship. I think that my response, whether in the general community or in the pro community, would be fairly common. Whether this means anything to you or not, I don’t know. With some people it makes a difference, and some people it doesn’t.
Secondly, people can argue child raising values forever. There is a billion ways to raise a kiddo. So much is situational. I am sure that there is someone who would argue that it is OK to wipe a 10 year old’s butt for him. I can think of a lot of things wrong with that and how it may not be beneficial to the kid, but I am willing to listen to a parent’s explanation. Same thing with this situation. I could probably think of a lot of things that may not be beneficial with a guy sleeping with the 10.5 year old daughter of their fiancee all night when their fiancee is not there, and I am so far not convinced with the weight of the positive gains that can be had for sleeping with her that could not be obtained by other means.
Since there are so many different ways to do things, with all sorts of positives and negatives, sometimes it is helpful to look at the possible benefits of a value decision, then you have to look at the possible negative repercussions of a value decision. You make the call! I know that this sounds simplistic and just plain common sense, but you would be suprised by how many parents come to me and demand that I tell them if something is “right or wrong.”
Thirdly, I think that it is possible to treat kids differently as they age and still let them know that they are loved and cherished and help them feel secure. Just because you’re a father and don’t feel comfortable letting your 16 year old son sit on your lap, kiss you on the lips, and watch “Aladdin” like you and he used to when he was 3, doesn’t mean he is going to go out and get someone pregnant because he feels rejected. There are other ways to display your love and make him feel secure in ways that might be a little bit more appropriate (and effective) with his level of maturity and development.
My aunt and uncle divorced after more than 5 years of yelling, vase-throwing, “that baby is the plumber’s” and other niceties on the same line. At that time, my cousins were 11 and 9.
When aunt remarried, over 12 years later, my youngest cousin was terrified that this would mean uncle#2 and aunt would now start yelling and throwing things… he knew it was irrational, but it also was the experience of marriage that he had. My elder cousin does not intend to marry, ever. She doesn’t want kids and has no intention of giving a man any kind of legal power over her; she needs to be able to kick him out of her house if he starts behaving like an ass.
Not everybody feels that having the legal piece of paper is “safer” or “more secure”.
I’m not sure, 13 or 14 or so, when on holidays and such.
Nitpick: her stuff.
And thank you. It’s always a pleasure to meet another member of the professional family on the Boards.
Excellent post, Mesquite-oh.
Although most of what I am going to say has been said already as parts of separate arguments, here is my abridged composite of how I see the OP’s situation:
Nobody would object if your girl were 5 years old and everybody would object if she were 16. 10 and a half is in that grey area where the difference is all on the child herself and her developmental history. Only her mom can say what is ok and what is not and she is ok with you sleeping with her. (although it may be time to start thinking on how to phase it out)
That you are not the biological father and that you are not married to the girl’s mom has nothing to do with this (it may from a legal standpoint but not personally which is what I gather you want examined). You love her as your child, she loves you as her dad. You ARE the father.
So one day you did what you normally do and thought nothing of it. So far so good.
Then the MIL sees the situation differently. Perfectly understandable and almost predictable from a detached 3rd person view. Mind you that she has no say on how you raise your kids but she rules in her house. You may eat in front of the TV everyday but not in her house if that is not what she does.
Then mom talk to her mom and all breaks loose. This is where I believe the problem lies. It is not about what you do with your child nor about what the MIL thinks. It is about how the mom and the MIL relate to each other and handled the situation (in your retelling it sounds like it is mostly mom’s fault but that is a very unfair judgement from someone who has such a limited understanding of the events).
IANA psychologist or anything of the sort but it sounds like there is a boundaries issue between them. It could be that MIL is controlling, that mom can’t handle criticism, that they speak different languages and can’t find a middle ground, whatever. They need to work that out.
The sleeping situation is just a catalyst. Not the real issue, IMIO.
My mom never let me sleep all night in the same bed as her and my dad. I remember going to her at night sometimes and asking to sleep with her after a bad dream or something, and she would comfort me and let me be with them for a while but then lead me back to my own bed. I never felt rejected or anything, I knew they were there if I needed them but she made it clear that I had my own bed and they had theirs. I don’t think anything bad happened with you or that your intentions were anything but fine, but I would not let any child of that age sleep all night with either parent. (Unless there were some specific other circumstances, like you are staying as guests and there is only one bed, etc. I think I slept with my mom in a hotel a couple of times.) When the child has a place of her own she should use it, IMO.
There is a big difference between letting a child sleep all night with you and depriving her of the physical affection she still needs. This is not an either / or situation. There are plenty of ways of making her feel loved and safe that do not include sleeping with her, I don’t think she would be rejected at all if you just told her “you are old enough to sleep in your own bed now.” My mom told me I could sleep alone at 4 and I was old enough to understand and accept that, I don’t think she will be that upset over it.
I don’t think anyone is accusing you of molestation, but there are other reasons not to sleep with a child other than that. I don’t let our 2 year old sleep with us, but it is not because I am afraid he will be molested or have sexual thoughts. I just wanted to point out that it’s not a situation where either you are molesting her or you can’t ever touch her in any way again. There is a wide middle ground here where hopefully everyone can be happy.
I thought I’d check in and let everyone know what’s happened since I last posted, because I know a number of you have had some very legitimate concerns about this situation.
This may sound absolutely naive to some people, but I had no idea that these circumstances would have caused such a reaction first in the family, and second, in the SDMB community.
It’s not a very comfortable situation to sit behind my keyboard knowing full well that nothing indecent whatsoever happened between my step-daughter and myself and then watch as comments are posted on the SDMB to the opposite effect.
Those of you who raised concerns will be relieved to know that I WILL NOT be sleeping in the same bed as my step-daughter again. While she hasn’t entered puberty yet, she is getting close to it (maybe in a year) and, yes, “even by my standards”, that would definitely be inappropriate.
As many people have gently pointed out, there are many ways to show affection to your kids. While my position is still the same in that I do not believe I did anything overtly harmful, the lesson learned here is that there are other factors involved in whether or not a given action is appropriate.
Some people mentioned that my step-daughter might be experiencing hormonal changes at this point, and could have feelings that might confuse her or cause her to feel guilty later. If I can prevent or minimize these in any way (ie, by NOT sharing the same bed as her), then that is what I am going to do. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
While posting this topic on the SDMB, believe it or not, I didn’t consider that none of you know me. I love my step-daughter dearly and would NEVER intentionally do anything to harm her. As her grandma wrote to me,
“Please believe me (us)…We didn’t assume the worst…We just looked at each other and said…” Oops…not ok."
My original thread subject line was completely taken the wrong way by many people. The means of drawing attention to the matter was part irony and partly out of anger because I didn’t feel I did anything wrong. In retrospect, the subject headline was in really bad taste.
I’ve learned my lessons.
Thanks,
NobleBaron
It’s not a physical rejection when they were not sleeping in the same bed previously; if they let the kid stay in their bed for that long and suddenly, boot, out you go, that’s a physical rejection.
As for her puberty status, it’s not so much his reaction as hers. Even pre-pubescent grade-school-aged kids can feel actual sexual attraction and arousal, and if she’s got hormones beginning to cause changes in her, that’ll make the situation even worse. The fact that she wanted to sleep in the same bed with him while her mother wasn’t around, in a familiar environment, suggests to me that she was not feeling scared or in need of a comforting father figure, but perhaps that she’s feeling confused. But maybe not. (IANAP, but I did do graduate work in the field.)
As for any harm, I believe the most likely harm is not to the girl or the OP, but how if the wrong people get alarmed at this, it could potentially turn into a custody and/or DCFS issue.
A few points:
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I suspect that your mother in law might have had a bad experience.
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Your almost-daughter will definitely develop a crush on you - this could become a problem in about two years time. I know that 37 years ago girls were sexually active at 13, so when they start now is rather mind boggling.
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Under the circumstances there was not much else you could do, but it would be sensible to avoid repeat occurences.
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Being English I was astonished to hear you say that kissing on the lips is normal. It might be a regional thing, or perhaps something within very specific families of some strange origin, but it is definitely not normal. The only example I can think of was a photograph in the papers that raised some eyebrows - including my own. It is possible that your family is of Russian extraction.
I think that you are partly (semi-consciously) aware that there is a potential future problem, and that your question was not exactly about the purported subject.
Point 2) probably confirms/identifies what you are probably really worried about.
Something makes me think that you are not the type to let that become a problem.
Next time, you take the small bed.
BTW, you obviously have two ladies who like you very much - good on you.
The thing is, we live in a world where men’s lives are ruined by even the suspicion or accusation of sexual misconduct towards young people. I don’t think this is where you want to go. Of course it’s not right that men have to think like this, but it is the hard, cold fact of living in North America.
Thanks for coming back and updating us, noblebaron.
Don’t take more criticism that you were actually given – which was plenty. Not a single person who posted believed anything indecent had happened between you and your daughter, and no one posted to even imply that anything did. The issue was one of appropriateness, not one of abuse. No one believed your intentions were anything other than good; they just disagreed with your actions.
What a splendid discussion.
Stepdad weighing in here. I liked the bobkitty and mesquite-o posts. I also liked noblebaron’s posts - they sound thoughtful and well intentioned. I understand from the noblebaron posts that he was aware of no sexual component to what went on, and am inclined to accept this on face value.
Most significantly, it appears there is usually or always a sexual component to parent-child relationships, which ideally is minor and generally hovering below everybody’s awareness. I think fathers and stepfathers of girls would ideally generally be observant enough of this component to recognize some kind of edge and steer clear of it while not being hurtful. So, for instance, affection would tend to be more physical when the daughter is more childlike and grow more mental as she becomes more womanlike. Cuddling a 5 year old is fine. For a 14 year old, knowing 5 or 10 of her friends’ names and having an everyday awareness of many things she’s happy about and worried about and asking her about them is a better way of being loving and giving her security. I would sort of assume that a 10.5 year old would have some kind of crush on her stepfather, at least on and off, unless there were something wrong. Sharing a bed while kissing her would be over that edge - at least, in American culture. Since part of the significance of the things we do is there interpretation in terms of our culture, what people think is relevant (it’s not everything, but it is relevant).
I think managing this edge is an important thing for fathers to do, and maybe the one thing that requires the most intuition and sensitivity and finesse.