i think i may be a racist..... and i dont like it

The BBQ Pit
41

Oh please. The best argument you can bring against me involves babies? Way to tug at some heartstrings without making any cogent rebuttal. But then again, white babies (not to mention white coma-people, white catatonics, and the severely mentally retarded who just happen to be white) have an edge over people of color, so yeah, I guess you could say they profit by institutionalized racism too. The point is that as white people we can’t escape privilege any more than people of color can escape prejudice.

I just think people’s definition of “racism” is way too narrow and too steeped in stereotypes. I still say that if you profit by racism then you are by definition a racist, even if you don’t “want” to be.

42

I’m wondering if you’re aware that your definition of racist lacks an escape clause? Because I refuse to be called racist for something that I have no control or power over, period. It’s not my fault that American society favors whites, and I therefore refuse to accept responsibility for being a racist by that definition, in the same way I refuse to accept responsibility for the extinction of the woolly mammoth simply because my ancestors ran most of them off cliffs.

Your argument admits no remedy. That’s unacceptable.

43

This is bullshit.

Does our society exhibit institutionalized racism? Sure. And to the extent that we don’t actively opose it, there is a certain complicity in the system.

But to argue that a person is a racist simply by virtue of his or her existence in a sytem that the person cannot control or change in any immediate, meaningful way is just the most ridiculous piece of reductionism.

By your interpretation, if i benefit somehow from a war i oppose, i must be a warmonger. If i benefit from the capitalist system, despite my socialist beliefs, i must also be a capitalist. If i stand by and watch other people eat meat, then i’m not a vegetarian, no matter what my own actions and beliefs happen to be.

While i believe that society, as a whole, needs to take responsibilty for the extent to which institutionalized racism is present within it, this is not the same thing as arguing that each individual member of that society is a racist. Your conflation of these two things does not reflect well upon your intelligence.

44

The first definition of “racism” on dictionary.com defines it as “the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.” Do you believe that you have never, ever made a judgement (either good or bad) about someone based on their race? That you never, even subconciously, choose to take a white person more seriously than a person of color, or walk a little faster when you see a black man on the road? We are indoctrinated with these subconscious tendencies from the moment of socialization. Nobody is race-blind in America; no matter how we try to compensate for it we still carry the marks of our “programming,” and in the case of whites, that means programming that tells us that our race is the most important one. Look at television and count how many people of color are in positions of power. Or how many stereotypes show up in the average movie. Or, to use a “positive” example, see how many times blacks are held up to be great athletes or Asians are held up as computer geniuses. Do you really believe none of these things “stuck” to you? And that’s just the media. I find it really hard that someone has thrown off all of their socialization surrounding race. I don’t believe that anyone doesn’t “see” or care about race; deep down, we are all a little bit racist. (And yes, POCs have indoctrinated ideas about race too, but it is not the same thing.)

The remedy is to work towards a society in which such race-based indoctrination/socialization is dismantled, to in essence make the list of white privileges obsolete. And I think that by examining racism as a system present in every aspect of American life we can do a lot more to dismantle it than if we shove the concept in a drawer somewhere and say “oh, that’s what OTHER people do; I’m not like that.” Most of you seem to be under the delusion that racism is just for guys in white hoods. Would it perhaps be more palatable if I just said that all white people are prejudiced? Because that’s true too, even though prejudice and racism are not the same thing.

And yes, someone living in a capitalist system is by definition a capitalist no matter what their personal beliefs. Because you still have to play the game and participate in capitalism, unless you emigrate, or drop out of society and live under a bridge. You can work towards dismantling the system, but until that happens, I don’t see how you can’t be a capitalist. As for vegetarianism, I don’t believe that analogy works, since you can be a vegetarian in a mostly non-veg society. But (most of us) can’t choose not to use money. You can be a capitalist with socialist beliefs, or a member of a warmongering society who disagrees with war, but you can’t divorce yourself from your society totally. And that’s how it is with race, to me at least–you may disagree with racism, you may wish there was no such thing, but at the end of the day you are still a member of a society which condones racism so at least in some small way you are responsible for it. And if you don’t like that, then do something to change it, instead of running from the ugliness. And I think that in most cases the first step is examining yourself and your own racist/prejudicial tendencies.

45

Whether i have or not is irrelevant, because that is not the argument you made before. Your previous argument was unrelated to my own belief about what race may or may not account for; it was, instead, an argument that i am a racist simply because i live in a society where racial inequity exists. That’s plain old dumb. By your definition, even those who specifically and unequivocally oppose racism are necessarily racists simply bcause they choose to oppose it at the place where it occurs, rather than from some mythical utopia where race is not and has never been an issue.

I’ve never argued against a certain level of indoctrination or societal assumptions or socialization. But to simply say that everyone who lives in society is a racist because of this is to make the very term “racism” effectively useless and redundant. After all, if i’m a racist simply by virtue of my presence, how can i criticize the guy who burns crosses of black people’s front yards, or the woman who refers to Muslims as “towel-heads”? Sure, where exactly one crosses a line into racism differs for different people, but surely intelligent people can agree that we need to have a set of reasonable criteria otherwise, as i said, the term itself might as well be discarded altogether. If everyone’s a racist, we don’t even need it as a social or cultural descriptor.

Sure, “work towards a society in which such race-based indoctrination/socialization is dismantled,” but by your definition the people who attempt to do that are still racists. Not a very appetizing thought for those who might be persuaded to try and improve society.

Your arguments make words completely meaningless. You would strip language of all its meaning, its nuance, and its utility to the people who use it, simply to satisfy your own idiotic absolutism.

46

This is what I was thinking. I know what you’re talking about, but there’s not a “race” that has a lockhold on being stupid or dishonest. If you want stories of white people being trashy and dumb, just ask people from rural towns. For
example, search for stories about Oildale, a neighborhood in (next to?) Bakersfield, CA. Only in the past ten years or so has anyone black had the guts to live there. At least the bridge doesn’t still say “No N------ after dark” any more. You know all the redneck/idiot jokes you hear? In Bakersfield, they’re Oildale jokes.

http://bakersfield.com/updates/story/5594751p-5570519c.html
http://www.humboldt.edu/~travel/2002/bakersfield.html

47

I was not as thorough in my earlier posts as I could have been. Maybe I wasn’t in the mood to write a long post then. The earlier post was a truncated form of my argument.

I never said there weren’t varying degrees of racism–in fact, I pointed out that there is a difference between racism-via-apathy, racism-via-active hatred, and racism-via-living in a racist society. Just because a word has a broad definition does not mean that the word is meaningless.

So we should tone down the language just so people don’t get down on themselves? Maybe by using the harshest words available, we can spur more people into action. And besides, the word racist as used to describe western whites is IMO technically correct, and I don’t believe personal desire to not be labeled a scary racist trumps correctitude.

What is wrong with being technically correct?

48

But you’re not even that. You’ve already asserted that the key definition of the term is “the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.”

Well, if i don’t, in fact, believe that, then how am i a racist?

Furthermore, point me to the technical definition of “racism” that supports your assertion that anyone living in Western society is a racist.

49

One time me and a friend were walking to a party in a fairly upper middle class neighborhood in D.C. (Glover Park). I suggested a short cut and, predictably, we were soon lost, staring at a fence in someone’s back yard with a small dog barking at us and a person looking at us through their window. While we tried to get our bearings my friend turned to me and said “Lucky we aren’t black.” He was as aware as I was that if we were, dressed down as we were, we might very well be talking to a couple of cops explaining what we were doing there.

So yeah, I’m aware that I get advantages for being white. And I agree that it’s stupid and it sucks. But seriously what am I supposed to do about it? Should I have called the police and demanded that they hassle me? I can barely manage my own life, let alone bear the weight of the unfairness of the world and history on my shoulders. All I can do is try to treat people fairly and benevolently, which is all any of us can do.

Seriously, Davenportavenger, what would you have us do? I mean specifically.

50

It is by no means the best argument. It is, however, sufficient to refute your claim. If you did not mean “all white people” you simply have to retract the statement, or offer evidence to support the proposition that white babies are not white people.

How about these examples. Is Morris Dees a racist? Jimmy Carter? Is Halle Berry half racist? How about blacks in America who benefit from the oppression of third world workers? Are they racists?
Your definition of racism dilutes the term beyond useful meaning. The world is a bit more complex than you seem to understand.

How about you take a trip to the poorer outreaches of Appalachia and tell the folks there about white privilege, and how it has enriched their lives, and how they were unable to escape it.

51

Because you can’t erase your “programming” around race. Even if you don’t consciously believe that there are differences between the races or buy into the stereotypes, the things we learned as children stick with us, and are reinforced by society. Again, I don’t believe that anyone has managed to completely rise above their society. That is not the same as saying a “typical” or even “progressive” white American is the same as a KKK member. Maybe “racist” was the wrong word to use, even though I think it’s correct and anything else would sugarcoat the reality of the situation.

I don’t think there is a quick-fix solution to repair thousands of years of racism and privilege. I suppose the best one can do is try to examine one’s own prejudices and try to eradicate them, and even more importantly, raise one’s children in a non-prejudicial environment. But it’s not going to happen overnight, and the fact that society is still by and large racist means that it’s an uphill road to climb.

Now who’s being pedantic? Race privilege has less to do with what you actually are than what you are perceived as being. And we all play a part in systemic racism; it’s not as simple as saying “oh, that person is a racist and that other person is not.” Because we all play a part in it no matter what our race. Again, you think I’m using “racist” as an epithet, when I am not.

Did I say that white people are across-the-board privileged compared to people of color? No, I didn’t. Certainly, class and culture play a major part in privilege as well; in fact, there is an accompanying class privilege list that I think is linked to the page that lists the list of white privileges. However, if you take a poor white person and a rich black person and put them out on the street for no reason late at night, who do you think the police will stop first? Who’s more liable to be prejudged as a criminal based on first impressions? Who can catch a cab easier? Class and race impact lives in different ways, and while I’m not about to rank oppressions I think that the fact that race is (usually) more visible than class means that the prejudice POCs face is more immediate.

P.S. I am from Appalachia, by the way. So don’t think you’re talking to someone who is ignorant about how bad poor people, even white ones, have it.

52

Bullshit. Use words so they make sense, not so they become completely meaningless. I’m done with your absolutist obfuscation.

53

I too have been struggling with myself about racism for some time now. My parents raised me to be free of prejudice. In my youth I knew very few black people, but I did live in an area where the number of asian and indian people combined outnumbered the white people. So I did grow up “colorblind” for the most part.
But over the course of many years, experience has made me racist in some ways. I hate to admit that. But I honestly can’t deny that I usually won’t trust a black person I don’t know. I don’t really want to go into the reasons why except that it has been through observation and experience.
I hate it. I work with black people that I like very much. I’ve dated black men. I’ve had black women friends and roommates. I don’t know how this huge state of cognative dissonance has come to be. I try to not let it affect my behavior. But it is undeniably there. And it’s not my fault. At no point did I ever choose to think this way. I kind of look at it like a learned response. And I don’t consider myself a bad or evil person for it. But I don’t really know what to think.

54

What in the world is pedantic about asking you to clarify this statement?

"All white people in the western world are racists, because we profit by white privilege. "

Either they are, or they are not. You have been given ample opportunity to amend that statement, and have chosen not to. In the absence of any substantive defense, I must consider the question to be unanswered, and therefore closed.

My goodness. I don’t know where to start. Perhaps you should define your terms. Is race privilege the same as white privilege? The same as racism? What is white privilege, exactly? And why in the world should any of us concern ourselves with the accusations of one who is more concerned with the way things look than the way they are?

You really should be more careful with your use of absolute terms. By ‘we all,’ do you mean Blacks as well? Asians? Latinos?

So you are saying that I am a racist, but that is not a bad thing? Or do you have a creative definition for ‘epithet’ that you wish to share?

You said all white people profit by white racism. I asked for no comparison with anyone else, and it is dishonest of you to suggest I did. Please tell me how a dirt poor white person in Appalachia has profited by white privilege, or retract the statement. What advantage is conferred to him by virtue of his color, with respect to him and him alone?

Stop from what? Walking down the street? Are you suggesting that it is inevitable that one or the other would be ‘stopped’ by the police? Are the police out there stopping folks willy-nilly? I think you have left out some pertinent information.

If you are asking who looks more suspicious, I would submit that Denzel Washington in a tuxedo (rich black man) would be perceived as less threatening than oh, some homeless white guy (poor white man.)

More immediate than what?

55

I struggle to keep from being racist in thought and deed. I work hard at this and work hard in not letting my kids inherit any racism from me. When you are beginning to generalize about a group, remember it is only a subset. Remember we are all human. Remember hate just gives rise to more hate.

I don’t quite get the reasoning. I come from a lower middle class family that very rarely ate out and never had delivery. I was not privy to the tipping my parents did but I have always tipped well as an adult. I tip 20%+ unless the service is poor. Then 15%-20%. If it is really bad I leave no tip and say something. This has happened about 5 times in my life.
When I was living paycheck to paycheck in the Navy, I still tipped well and now that my wife and I have achieved an upper-middleclass living we still tip well.

I cannot understand the remaining ignorant to tipping for the reasons mentioned and in my experience, African-Americans used to tip as well as any others. I only worked one job that got tips but I never noticed a problem. Could this be regional and not just racial?

Jim

56

davenportavenger By the definition you have cited, you are the racist here, **you **are the one who believes that whites have benefited by what you call ‘white privliage’, they (the ‘whites’) do not see this and do not qualify under this definition.

57

I am pretty sick of “White privilege” being thrown in my face. Here are the reasons why:

  1. It’s almost always guilty white liberals doing it
  2. All people are oppressed by this system
  3. It implies that I should do worse out of solidarity for my black brethren/sistern
  4. It ignores any efforts I have made in this life to be equitable

On to the definition of racism.

Making a judgement of a person based on race is racism.

I dislike the liberal guilt framework of this debate. Race is a combination of genetics and culture. It is not extremist or dangerous to make this simple statement of fact. If we weren’t genetically different we’d have the same skin color, it’s that simple. If we had the same customs, we wouldn’t offend each other accidentally.

There is too much emphasis on guilt in this debate. The guilt has made it nearly impossible to have a frank discussion of the subject.

I make decisions based upon race all the time. For instance on Saturday I was handing out a little “Know Your Rights” leaflet, that instructed people on what to do if questioned/arrested by a police officer. I most definitely ‘profiled’ people. I picked the people I felt most likely to be harassed by cops. The top four categories were: Blacks, Hispanics, Arabs, and “Counterculture” types.

You know what the average reaction I got from black people was? It was statements like “That’s what’s up.”, “Yeah we need to know this.”, “That’s the Troof.”, and similar statements. Not a single one of them was like "You’re just singling me out because I am black! Which admittedly I was. I was filling the need where I saw it, and that need happened to correspond racially in many of the cases. So I was engaging in “racial profiling”, while doing it.

We have to remove the guilt paradigm from the debate to really heal the rift. We need to be able to say the word “racism” without it being an automatic negative. Politically correct doublespeak damages us greatly.

The big thing that seperates the upper classes from the lower classes is etiquette, it’s always been a way to seperate groups and organize them. Creating increasingly complicated forms of etiquette is not the answer, it’s about moving past that etiquette to see what divides there truly are besides not speaking the language in the same colloquial manner. One of the main reasons that black people have a difficult time assimilating into white culture is the difference in the etiquette. I have seen people struggle with foreign etiquette as they struggle to be included in the group, and watch their frustration and disappointment as the conversation moves along without them.

Throughout ancient history, tribes travelled across the world to remote locations and settled, because there wasn’t really any way for them to get back to where they used to live. This is what created racial divisions. What seperates one race from another is how far into antiquity we have to reach to find a common ancestor. The more recent that common ancestor the easier it is for us to recognize an instinctual familiarity. The other half of this is culture. Class is an aspect of culture, and people from similar classes are capable of transcending racial barriers due to commonalities. This explains why the Bush and Saud families can work well together, as well as explaining why Dr. Dre and Eminem can work well together.

One of the biggest problems with this argument is that people look too hard at is as a systemic issue, when in reality the issue is between individuals closing themselves off to what is alien. When one closes themselves off they create a barrier for themselves that must be overcome, it hurts them as much as it hurts anyone else, because if you judge someone by an invalid criteria, then you are not judging your surroundings appropriately, and you operate in a world of delusion.

There is no real “Systemic” fix to this problem. As you can see all around the world this issue is playing out as it has been for the past few thousand years. It’s only now actually considered important, and only over the past 50 years or so have we truly been trying to resolve it, it’s important to recognize that 50 years is a very short amount of time to change the culture across the board. We’ve made some progress, but a lot of our efforts to make it better have only made it worse. This is because we are operating from guilt. Until we can start operating from something other than guilt, we’ll never see the solution to these problems. Guilt is painful it is unpleasant, and people can feel it on you when you approach them, and they often resent being pandered to out of guilt. The guilt in and of itself is racist.

It’s for people to realize on an individual level what is racist about them, and carefully weight their decisions for the betterment of themselves and their relationships with people they meet, before the overall societal concerns even become relevant.

Erek

58

Exactly.

I can’t reply to the rest of the posts right now since I have to leave work and I don’t have Internet at my house this week. Will reply tomorrow.

59

Do you pull all of this shit out of your ass? When I’m wacking off to images of Natalie Portman it has nothing to do with her phermones. And phermones don’t contain one’s genetic code.

60

That’s white priviledge for you. :stuck_out_tongue: