I Think We Have Lost

Politics & Elections
121

That is rich to say when the same Republicans are banning the teaching of history by calling it Critical Race Theory.

Missing the point, as the new governor and the lieutenant governor of Virginia showed, there is no need to be Trump to show that the current Republicans are still a death cult.

So, no, until more of the Republicans show it, that party and a good number of others are not tired of hearing about that trash.

I prefer that hate rather than the hate of science, medicine and social justice that is coming from the right.

122

There is something to what you say (tho I’m not sure how much of a big deal legal pot is, unless it relates to overcriminalization/prison reform.). I am not sure of the US figures, but worldwide, the MOST destitute are better off. Look at access to health care, basic sanitation, and basic education for a few obvious examples. And - depending on the specific time period in the past used as a comparison, much is better for many “minority groups” - non-cis as one obvious example.

All that is good and should not be overlooked.

But such advances say little about the hollowing out of the middle class, the horrific wealth discrepancies, and the lack of social mobility. Not just in the US but worldwide. Talk about $15 min wage is fine and dandy, but more importantly IMO, would be a discussion of what sort of lifestyle we expect the MIDDLE 60-80% of our population to be able to enjoy. Not the poorest of the poor, and not the wealthiest. What is sustainable and ought to be achievable? I don’t see much discussion of that. What does it mean in terms of education? Jobs? (And where do those jobs come from?) Housing? Consumption?

123

We had dinner with a group of friends last night. Some time ago Mrs. L (through whom I know them) raised the issue of Trump etc. being a factor that would keep us from joining them. That was agreed to be a no-fly zone the next time we saw everyone, though one, John, dropped “Pocahantas” into a conversation. Grr.

With COVID and all we haven’t been back much till last night. Then John was talking about how the “truth” has to come out and offers to send everybody links to information he’s recently discovered. I didn’t protest; I’m the outsider in the group, so to speak. He said “Some of you may ask to be removed from the list.” And sure enough this morning there were emails to be read.

The first one had oan as its source. So I replied (but not reply all) with a link to politifact giving the lowdown on oan and asking to be removed from the list.

I suppose like everyone else I’m in a weird position. I’m thankful for John’s friendship and recognize a lot of good qualities in him. I don’t think it’s my job to change everybody’s mind, but I don’t plan to go along with them either. So I said WHY I disagreed.

IMO that’s the reason we’re failing—you can find a “cite” for anything at all on the internet. Mrs. L engaged him on this and she asked what sources I’d consult. I said AP, BBC, NPR…and she raised those with him, which he of course pooh poohed.

Next time there’s a dinner, I won’t go. Maybe the next 3 or 4 times. Mrs. L doesn’t want to burn bridges and I don’t think I have, but IMO “no means no.” If we’ve agreed that Trump is out of bounds and you’re going to bring up BS that implies he was right about an issue, that’s just an end run. It’s ironic that John says the truth shouldn’t be politicized but he picks sources that are virulent, isn’t it?

I guess my point is that it’s time to push ourselves a little—but just a little—out of our comfort zone. They’ll notice I stopped coming. Then maybe at a future dinner he’ll say, “You all remember that link I just sent…” and I can reply that no, we don’t all. And I like the fact that sending him that politifact is a way of saying, “These folks are liars and you’re spreading the lies for them.” Not that he’d believe that, but it’s on record.

It’s going to be a war of baby steps and probably attrition.

124

Yes, Trump should be out of bounds, too bad many on the right still go about pushing what he represented. While he was the embodiment of the 7 deadly sins, one should realize that getting rid of him does not get rid of the sins.

Trump demonstrated how many out there wanted to follow the worst angels of their nature, and how to vote for them.

125

More projection than a multiplex. Next time, try just saying “No, YOU are!!”

126

So rather than address my point that the far-left is turning people with centre-right tendencies and historical Republicans away from the Democratic Party, or refute the OP’s claim that the Democratic Party is losing in the Democrats vs Republicans political battle, you’re just going to fling “Republicans Bad!” mud against the wall hoping some sort of point will emerge from the muck? Whatever.

But for the sake of providing a counterargument to you, let’s address the point of Critical Race Theory. As I understand it, CRT’s premise is that implicit racism currently exists in the US and other western societies, especially in the forms of structural racism and institutional racism, and that this racism is based on the downstream effects of historical antecedents. That’s a complicated subject that requires educational grounding in history, civics, economics, and psychology to understand. Watered-down education on CRT ends up being pantomimes about white privilege with an underlying message that white people can’t help being racist. Parents object to the in-depth teaching of CRT because 1) most high-schoolers don’t have the educational grounding to properly understand it, and 2) there are more important history subjects such as mainstream US history and world history that are already not being sufficiently covered. And parents object to the watered-down version of CRT because 1) they don’t want their children being called racists, and 2) there are lots of poor white people who object to being told they’re privileged. Those objections seem reasonable to me. But when they’re made, the instant response from the left is that those objections are racist and part of an anti-black racist agenda. And having been called racist, anyone who reasonably objects to the teaching of CRT wants nothing to do with the party of the people doing the name-calling.

I guess this is the point where you’ll tell me that CRT is a right-wing made-up boogieman and the left isn’t advocating the teaching of it? If so, why does the left react so strongly to schools not teaching a subject they don’t want to be taught?

127

Can you please list all the non-college institutions that have or have ever had CRT in their class offerings or curriculum?

128

“No, YOU are!!” Happy?

129

Noted that you are not dealing with I said, in any case I’m explaining why they are winning a bit now, with lies. It is not really sustainable, but it works for a few cycles.

Cite for the reasonable objections? The reality is that it was not a thing that was being taught in high school, what was being taught are the history of slavery and past injustices that thanks to the lies being told about CRT the republicans that are being put in charge are going for the real reason why: to whitewash that history.

Explained already here and many times before, it is not a coincidence that many professors and teachers that deal with CRT in universities or colleges who are minorities are the targets of the new laws. (I noticed that several states passed bans on the teaching of CRT that included also colleges) It is too convenient to forget that professors not only deal with research, they teach it too.

130

I’d be happier if you do some reflection, and realize that your ideas of what the Democrats stand for are derived from the fun-house mirror fantasy land that has been fed to you by your media of choice.

The Democrats are a center-right party by any standard. Your perceptions are skewed by the shift of the Overton Window, which has been pointed out repeatedly here, as well as the lies being fed to you continuously.

This is a telling statement: " favoured towards blacks and “LGBTQ+ people,"
Right. Pro-tip: Acknowledging that people have equal rights is not “favoritism”. Treating LGBTQ+ people the same as you DOES NOT mean that you have fewer rights, or they are treated more favourably. It means they are treated the same. And this is somehow terrible in your books.

131

There may be disagreement about standards, but they’re quite obviously not center-right by any standard since well over 45% of American voters voted to the right of them. So by the standard of “what American voters voted for”, and the standard of “center right” being the 25% to 50% most conservative segment, by failing to capture almost all of this vote, they aren’t center right.

I don’t even think they’re center right by a more reasonable standard of what American voters would vote for if the electoral process didn’t have so many targeted roadblocks, but that’s an unknowable proposition. The most that would happen in my opinion is that they would be a center party since they would capture both sides of the middle ground but might have a viable breakaway party emerge to their left.

132

:thinking:

Well, with fewer restrictions in the past election, more people voted for Biden. And although there were loses in the house, the fewer roadblocks maintained the house and gave us a slight advantage in the senate.

133

CRT is indeed a made up boogeyman. It’s more word heroin for conservatives like “woke” and " cancel culture. "

134

And “socialism”. Just more words that the right wingers don’t understand.

135

I disagree - this is not necessarily true; simply breaking it down by votes does not paint the correct picture, especially when many on the right are voting against a fictitious bogeyman of “left” painted by their media. A simply tally of votes does not indicate what policies voters actually favor.

136

The situation is definitely not one dimensional, but what other “standards” did you have in mind other than your personal preference when you said that they are center right by any standard?

137

Update: Mrs. L got a text from Mrs. John. Without preamble she related that she has begun declining invitations to get-togethers because she knows John is overbearing and obsessing etc.

138

Here’s an article from the BBC explaining some of the objections to CRT. It doesn’t directly match to my list of reasonable objections, but coincides to the idea that people object to CRT because the washed-down version of it has an anti-white message.

On the idea that CRT is less important that mainstream US history, here’s a comment from US News.

Recent surveys have shown that barely half of Americans can name the three branches of government and that most would earn an “F” on the U.S. citizenship exam. The most recent National Assessment of Educational Progress found that just 15% of eighth-graders are proficient in U.S. history.

Those critical of the push for states and school districts to emphasize a view of U.S. history that examines more deeply the generational impacts of some of the country’s ugliest moments argue that it amounts to revisionism and promotes division, negativity and shame in identifying as American. Instead, they say, now is a moment to strengthen the traditional U.S. history curriculum.
https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/what-is-critical-race-theory-and-why-are-people-so-upset-about-it

On the complexity and white-privilege aspects, this Newsweek article addresses those arguments, although its main objections to CRT are on other grounds.

As for universities, if the objection is that public money could be better spent on better programs such as special needs students, that’s a pretty reasonable argument.

And as to you referring to the Republican Party as a death cult, that’s the sort of partisan mud-slinging that I’m saying is alienating who’s supported the Republican Party in the past.

139

I’d say the more accurate term would be “the straw man version that some on the right make up in order to get folks scared and whipped up”

Like the tobacco company-loving, climate change denying, Republican supporting Heritage Foundation. Sorry, but they are not the bastion of “reasonable” in anyone’s books.

140

The Irony of the party of “facts don’t care about your feelings” and “fuck your feelings” is now passing laws to protect the fragile feelings of white people that don’t like talking about American history. Discomfort is part of the learning process.