I believe we should all shut the hell up with the recriminations and the back and forth. Bush won, let’s move on with fixing the economy and winning the war in Iraq. And although I’m not a believer, you may want to pray for our people in Fallujah and the Iraqi civilians in harm’s way.
Breakin’ out the kneepads.
As if that’s going to happen with Bush as President? Those were the biggest reasons to vote for Kerry, pal.
That might have been more creditable if you hadn’t followed it with :D. You might acknowledge that those people wouldn’t have needed praying for if your boy hadn’t both lied and screwed up, and they’d be in less danger now if you hadn’t been among those who voted for him again anyway.
:wally
Yeah, well, he’s gotta wear a wig and lipstick, okay? And shave, too.
That’s true enough, and the left has conveniently forgotten that. I see people like Stoid trumpeting how many people that voted for “their side” in this election. Jinx referenced it above. Hell, I am one of those voters, and the fact of the matter is that verses any candidate except for George W. Bush, Kerry probably would have polled 40-45%. Counting on those people who voted against Bush(instead of for Kerry) to rally 'round the liberal flag in eight years is foolish, but they’re gonna do it, just watch-and then be flabbergasted when even fewer people vote for them next time around.
No, I don’t think the recriminations should stop, though I can certainly understand how you might. If it were not for the people you support, we would not have to pray for our troops, and the innocent civilians in harms way. For the clear and obvious reason that they would not be in harm’s way, were it not for the men you support.
And “win the war in Iraq”? Could you outline what, in your estimation, that entails? The abject surrender of everyone in Iraq not in accord with the principles and goals of The Leader? How many million new enemies do you think we have, now that you guys got what you wanted? Do you imagine that we are deeply admired and beloved in the world, now that you got what you wanted? Can you possibly be that delusional?
This is all yours now, Manny. You and yours, this belongs to you. We tried, you wouldn’t listen. And as the casualties mount and the world stares in horror at the arrogance and pitiless obstinance of the nation that was once the light of hope in the world…you would like us to withold our “recriminations”.
Not a chance.
My wife doesn’t have facial hair, so I’m kinda curious what the tickle would feel like. 
We don’t have a smiley to connote the mealy-mouthed piety of a Pharisee. He did the best he could.
He was plagiarizing my previous post.
A-frigging-men.
There’s a real simple measurement for me. In 1999 I found the SDMB and realized that 90% of the people were smarter than me. Right or left, they were well-informed, cogent, and civil. Nearly every time I posted I was afraid I was going to end up looking like an idiot as the person I was critiquing calmly and respectfully disemboweled my argument. And they usually did.
Which made me a more thoughtful and moderate person. Most of what I’ve learned on the SDMB came from posts I didn’t make: I thought ahead, guessed what someone like a gobear or a BrainGlutton would say in response … and realized that maybe they were right. And so I didn’t post, but walked away wiser.
Just the opposite is true now; there are plenty of threads where the discourse is frankly beneath me. And the intelligent criticism which was the whole attraction is more likely to be replaced by venomous diatribes from the usual suspects on the Idiot Fringe
Sure, I can put them on my ignore list, and I do. But all that means is that I’m abdicating my part in the fight against ignorance and leaving it to better people than I, like Bricker.
This board can either have purpose of fighting ignorance and actively run off the numbnuts on both sides; or it can have a touchy-feely “every voice is equally valid” attitude and inevitably decline into looking like every other board on the net. At this point, I would bet strongly on the latter; but I’d love to be wrong.
Now that it’s a pay site, I doubt the mods are going to start getting stricter. The only chance is for the intelligent left to run off their hate-filled adolescent fringe as forcefully as the intelligent right runs off the Stormfront crowd.
True enough, Furt, but five years ago there wasn’t that much to argue about. Now there is. I, for one, couldn’t be happier if all we had to wrangle over was “entreprenuership”, “personal responsibility”, gay marriage, issues like that. That would be the very heaven!
If I even could express to you how much I regret our present circumstances, you most likely would not believe it, and I couldn’t blame you. How does one calmly and placidly speak against death and horror? How does one murmer polite demurs in the face of needless suffering? If you believe, as I do, that we have been led into a swamp of bloody agony, how do you speak the truth without offending anyone?
Unless you have a time machine stashed in your basement, you can’t undo the work of the past 4 years. All you can do now is to urge the administration to take the prudent course. IMO, that’s prosecuting the war against the insurgents with more troops and supplies while at the same time delegating money and manpower to helping Iraq get back on its feet. All we’ve shown Iraq is the stick, which is why they hate us and the insurgency has swollen with recruits. now it’s time for the carrot, showing the positive benefits of democracy and a market economy.
More to the point, we have to let the Iraqis lead. Yes, I know, Cheney has his hand up Allawi’s ass, but if we can help the Iraqis select a new leadership and a loyal oppostion and make more decisions for themselves, that might lead to Iraq becoming a more moderate state.
And I know you’re going to throw LBJ and “Vietnamization” at me, but this is isn’t Vietnam.
Oh dear oh dear, Hentor called me a naughty name! Boohoohoo! I am all
upset and everything!
Let me see - whatever could I do to see if I should be as deeply upset as I am!
I know - I will check to see if his opinions are worth a used condom.
Oopsie! Guess not!
To recap:
[ul][li]Bush won []Republicans picked up seats in the House []Republicans picked up seats in the Senate []Republicans picked up several governorships []Bush is likely to appoint the next two to four Supreme Court justices Hentor the Barbarian is a classless, whiny sore loser.[/ul][/li]
Maybe I am a snivelling little pussy. But I am a snivelling little pussy whose party is in control of all three branches of government.
I feel much better!
Regards,
Shodan
Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose.
Give it up, Shodan, he knows French!
As well, he knows his ass from a hole in the ground. There is much there for you to admire, when you are done gloating over the victory of the biggest liar since Nixon.
There was a reason the SDMB was not the same. And that reason is that one side could not rationally defend itself, and had to resort to other tactics (such as making the election itself determine who is right on the issues, an illogical and disingenuous tactic).
The Bush administration’s former golden boy Chalabi gave vital classified information to Iran, and gave us false intelligence on Iraq, which Bush ate up because it was what he wanted to hear, and used to justify the war. He made fools of us, weakened us, and gave us false reasons to attack Iraq.
Instead of questioning how the Bush administration could make such a monumental mistake, Bush backers had to just ignore it.
Similar with why we sent local warlords and their men, many of whom were already Al Qaeda friendly, and most of whom could easily be bribed, to get Bin Laden. Then left open the path to Pakistan, which Bin Laden simply walked along to escape.
This plan is so obviously absurd that nobody could defend it; thus ignoring it remained the only option. Why was the man who murdered thousands in the US of no importance?
The WMD were another example. Not why they weren’t there, but why we allowed the WMD sites to be looted before we even went to them. Bush is actually extremely lucky that there were no WMD, because if there were, they would likely be in the hands of terrorists by now after the looting and the overrunning of Iraq by outside terrorists.
But I have never gotten an explanation for this:
If we thought there were WMD, then isn’t letting the sites be looted an incredible failure and a disaster?
If we didn’t think there were WMD, then weren’t we being fed blatant lies?
Once again, there is no way to defend the administration’s actions, so nobody did.
You ask why the SDMB was different than it used to be; the answer is that the Bush administration was not defendable using the facts. Any chance for reasonable debate on these issues was crushed right off the bat, because there was no reasonable defense for them.
After realizing no reasonable debate could be had, both sides descended into pointless name-calling and muck-raking.
Figures.
So does Kerry, and he lost.
Regards,
Shodan
As has been amply demonstrated in this thread, you are a lying sack of shit, so your calling the President a liar is ridiculous, at best.
Pot>Kettle>Black
Actually, that didn’t occur to me.
Democracy, you say. Do you think they mean it? What do you know about this fellow, Allawi? If you check him out, he looks a lot like Chalabi Lite. IIRC, he is, in fact, a former CIA asset and Chalabi’s cousin.
But, all right, democracy. Fully 60% of Iraq is of the Shia persuasion, a long oppressed majority, itching to seize the reins of power, as is their right, if we mean what we say when we mouth the piety “democracy”. But do we?
Do you think that if all indications were that a free and fair election in Iraq would install a virulently anti-American Shia theocracy, we would permit such an election to go forward? Or would we throw our support behind an unelectable “strong man”, who can be counted upon to toady? Will we be intoning new and freshly minted hypocrisy to cover our failures, or hand Iraq over to sworn enemies?
How long before the last helicopter lifts off from the Green Zone, and the authors and supporters of this disaster start blaming me and mine for their own stubborn stupidity, before they start singing the refrain “Well, we could have done it, and done it well, if it were not for the disloyalty of 'luci and his traitorous ilk”.
No, “Vietnamization” isn’t the morbid cliche that occurs to me. “Light at the end of the tunnel” seems more likely.
What will happen? I don’t know, I admit I am entirely pessimistic, hence unlikely to be surprised, however happy that would make me. I think the very same men who now scornfully dismiss an option like “cut and run” will be busy manufacturing a barely plausible euphemism for exactly that.
It stands at just over a thousand of our best, and what? $200 billion? How much more, do you think, we’ll have to swallow? Have you noticed that all the stern supporters of this debacle have yet to hazard a guess?
Have I a better plan? Nope, sure don’t, wish I did. I can only guarantee you one thing: the authors and supporters of this monstrosity have earned my unrelenting contempt and derision. And yours.
By the by, the following:
We tried. They wouldn’t listen. On their heads be it.
Silly me. We have such stalwarts as Shodan, Manhattan, Bricker and Starving Artist. Men of probity and intelligence, firm supporters of The Leader. Surely they have the answer?
What say you? How many, how much, how long? Care to go on record? Surely you thought this all through before you threw your support where you did? Enlighten us!