Please, Sweet William, give a more lengthy explanation of these things. Once you provide all the details, those other Dopers will have to admit that you are not motivated by racism but only a desire to tell the truth. Do not restrict yourself to answering questions. Lecture us. Then everyone will see why I chose you as my Special Friend.
I’m surprised that no one has given this thread the appelation it so richly deserves:
I’m not here to give lectures Doc. I came here to find out if I can be an Athiest Jew like some of my friends here. I am told that it is not about race so I should be safe there. I am told that it is not about religion either since you have athiest Jews. I am told that anyone with the persistence can join soooo…sign me up. I am all for education and learning a trade, I am all for having citizenship in Israel so I can flee to there if I ever commit an axe murder here, I am all for kosher dills. Whats the problem?
"You seem to imply that you can read my mind. If I tell you that if your kid keeps poking at that mean dog he is going to get bitten, would you imply that I think the child deserves to be bitten? I don’t think Jewish people deserve anything less than the same treatment afforded any other human beings by civilized people. What they get may be quite different than what they deserve. It is something called “reality”. Check it out sometime. "-Sweet Willy
It had nothing to do with mind reading, and everything to do with what you said. In both those posts you seem to imply that the Jews somehow gave the world a reason to persecute them, that being racism. In both posts you suggest that Judaism is persecuted because it has racist aspects. To me, that seems to be suggesting Judaism deserved it, but perhaps I somehow missed some hidden meaning in your posts. You see, Sweet Willy, you seem to suggest in your posts that not only are the Jews being persecuted for these reason (the “reality” you just spoke of) but somehow brought it on themselves. So, was this a case of bad wording, or have I somehow lost my ability to understand subtlety in English?
I want to become a Bush!
But the way I understand things, the Bushes only allow you to join their “clan” in one of two ways:
- Be born to a mother who’s a Bush; or
- Marry a Bush man.
But I don’t want to marry a Bush man – why should I have to accept their bad grammar and wacky politics just to become a Bush? The people born to Bushes don’t have to do that, so why should I?
Oh, sure, I could CALL myself a Bush, but do you think they’d let me onto the Bush ranch in Texas! Nooo, they wouldn’t!
The racists.
Once you provide your statistics on criminals taking advantage of Israel’s imigration policy to escape prosecution, this statement will actually carry weight. So, do you have statistics?
No you didn’t. There is a causal effect between the two. This in no way implies that Jews deserved to be killed. Whether or not they deserved it is a mute point. They got it. They got it for a reason. Wouldn’t you like to know why? Could it maybe, just maybe, help to understand why these people hated Jews? Or do you care? Just write it off to a bunch of mad men and let it go at that. Not a good idea.
Understanding motive behind persecution is one things. Completely changing yourself to avoid persecution is another. You see, Sweet Willy, both those posts seem to suggest that the persecution would go away if Judaism got rid of its racist policies. This implies that there is some sort of logic behind the persecution that civilized people could and should embrace. If this was not your point in the posts and you were trying to explain the motive behind persecution is one thing. Saying such motive is logical implies that the persecutors have a strong enough point to have something close to a right to perform the persecution. This is not the first time what you are trying to say has become unclear Sweet Willy. List your opinions on this matter, CLEARLY please (and not just this particular one but all those that we have discussed concerning the Jews.)
Sweet Willy, how should Jews go about renouncing their racism, and avoiding in the future the cultural behaviour that has earned them so much negative attention from every other group? Please, be specific: “don’t be racist” isn’t very constructive.
Well, do you recall Samuel Sheinbein?
Read about him here;
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9803/02/israel.teen.update/
and here;
http://www.cnn.com/US/9908/24/sheinbein/
This is a fine example.
So go down to the courthouse and pay the fee and change your name. Requires no ancestry or religious conversion.
Really, if that’s your only question, it’s been answered, hasn’t it?
I want to be an “ex-Catholic”, like some posters on this board. I was raised by atheists–I’ve never even been baptised! How can I too be an ex-Catholic?
Well, in order to be an “ex-Catholic”, I’d have to have been a Catholic at some point to begin with. So, I’d have to convert to Catholicism, and then double-cross the Pope and return to the folds of Secular Humanism. Then, I could be an atheist, but I could be one of those cool ex-Catholic atheists. Of course, if all this is my intention right from the start, it might raise theological questions about the validity of my conversion, baptism, etc.–I dunno, I’m not a Catholic. And if someone were to print out this thread and show it to the priest, he might refuse to baptize me.
From what you have already been told, a gentile can convert to Judaism. Once this has been done, they are considered fully Jewish. If they then backslide and become an atheist, they are officially in the same boat as Woody Allen. If they go in to the whole conversion process intending to do this right from the start, it is unlikely the rabbis will buy it, especially since Judaism takes a considerably harder line on conversion than Christianity does–I daresay anybody could get baptized into at least some Christian denomination or other, with very few questions asked.
Israeli immigration policy is ethnocentric. It favors “Jews”, an ethic group (though not a “race” in any particularly meaningful sense) defined in part by a religious heritage. (Other ethnic groups may be defined by language, but religious heritage as a component of ethnic identity is not unheard of elsewhere.) This is known as nationalism. Nationalism may seem odd to Americans, since we like to say that our country is founded on different principles–we are the “melting pot”, a country of people from all over the world united only by allegiance to a set of ideals, not a tribe, all of whose ancestors were the Gauls or the Picts or whatever–but it’s hardly uncommon, in various forms, in other parts of the world. Germany also has a “right of return” for ancestral Germans. Syria is the “Syrian Arab Republic” and Egypt is the “Arab Republic of Egypt”–they are officially “Arab” states, even though there are, for example, non-Arab Kurds in Syria.
In some utopian sense, all of this may be perhaps regrettable. But to harp endlessly on the ethnocentrism of one group, the Jews, and not on the ethnocentrism of the rest of the human race, raises questions about one’s own ethnic prejudices.
Finally, to address a point raised earlier int he thread. Does Jewish = Israeli and Israeli = Jewish?
Israel is a Jewish state. It has some non-Jewish citizens (as Syrian has non-Arab citizens and Turkey has non-Turkish citizens); they officially are full citizens of Israel. But Israel is a “national home” for the Jewish people, an idea dating back to the same historical period that saw new states established to act as the “national homes” for the Greek and Italian and German peoples, and a little later for the Polish and Romanian peoples.
However, not all Jews are Israelis. (Just as not all persons of Polish ethnic identity are citizens of Poland.) So, Israel is a Jewish state, but not all Jews are Israelis, or even supporters of Israel. Not keeping these concepts clear may also raise questions about one’s own ethnic prejudices.
And you can change your name to “William Israel” too, and join the “Church of the True Jews”–there are groups of people (usually pretty nasty people) who have done just that sort of thing. Of course, you won’t be able to immigrate to Israel; then again, just changing your name to “William Herbert Walker Bush” won’t get you invited to Kennebunkport, either.
I did some brief research on this case. It seems that it concerns the citizenship law in Israel saying that anyone with parents who have Israeli citizenship is considered a citizen (or at least can become one.) So, it does not seem to concern religion. You could be any religion, as long as your parents have Israeli citizenship. At least, that’s how I understood the conditions of the case. I could be wrong. I only briefly researched it, in my desire to reply quickly.
You see now Willy? These people need the kind of information only you can give. You MUST lecture us. Otherwise, we’ll never learn. Come on, Special Friend, lay your wisdom upon us.
I was getting ready to make this point, and then wondering whether I’d just get getting brickdust imbedded in my forehead. Thanks for explaining it for me!
Daniel
It already is regrettable Mr. Buckner. The wedge of ethnic division precipitated the most sinister act of war the world has ever known. This is our Utopia, this is our lifetime, this is our world. What we choose to do with it is up to us. We can divide along racial and religious and ethnic lines and duke it out. Seems like we already tried that though. Doesn’t come out well in the end. Lots of dead people. We could, OTOH, strive to tear down ethnic barriers and come to understand each other and respect each other. People try to find meaning in their lives. Alot of them them turn to ethnic ties or religious ties. That is a good thing as long as you don’t hurt other people along the way. I think Christianity is a good thing until some crack pot comes along and damns me to eternal torture in the pitts of hell. I went to church a couple years ago and sat through an hour of a sermon that damned the Dali Llama to hell. WTF? And ethnic ties? Jews and gentiles have been fighting each other for thousands of years. How do we stop it? Cling to those ties? I would be ashamed. I am ashamed. If you want to condem me for trying to shed a little of my perspective on why so many ethnic groups hate Jews, go ahead, but it won’t help anything. I know wearing my shoe is uncomfortable to you but get a good feel for it before you just fling it off, you’ll be better for it in the end.
OK, Sweet Willy,
There are still some outstanding issues that need to be resolved.
You stated that Jewish tradition affects gentiles. Despite my repeated requests for you to back this statement up, you haven’t.
You stated that Jews are racists. When asked in what way Jews are racists, you stated that Jews prefer “racial Jews” to converts. When I pointed out your error and asked you to again provide evidence that Jews are racists, you still failed to provide any relevant cites.
You stated that Jews were responsible for the persecution they suffered because of their racism. When asked to back this up, you haven’t provided any evidence.
So, Sweet Willy, please back up these three statements with some useful facts.
Zev Steinhardt
It is a fine example of the bogus falsehoods you will use to promote your little irrational tirade.
Sheinbein was not admitted to Israel for any “Law of Return.” He was admitted to Israel because his father holds an Israeli passport. Neither his religion nor his mother’s religion or ethnicity had anything to do with it. He got into Israel in the same way that Gerald Ford “got into” the United States.
So, having been asked for statistics regarding people using some imagined Jewish racism to flee the law, you provide one single anecdote that fails to even meet the criteria against which you are railing.
So, we’re back to the John John hypothesis: If those Jews would simply give up their monotheism, dietary laws, the holiness code, and all the other silliness that makes them different, they could get along with everybody. (They would no longer be who they are, but they would fit in nicely with the rest of the vanilla/white bread world we wish to create.)
In what way did the Jews hurt any other people at the time that they were persecuted by the Greeks, Romans, Persians, Christians, or Nazis? You can rail against the policies of the nation of Israel in the last 50 years, but you are claiming that 2,000+ years of persecution were the result of the actions of the Jews and now you are implying (again) that it is their fault because (you imply) it “would be OK” except that they must have hurt someone.
Who? And how?
Originally spewed by Sweet Willy
**
The conversation (without using actual quotes) has gone something like this:
SW: I want to be a Jew but don’t want to accept the religion.
Jews: You can’t. If you want to convert, you have to accept the religion.
SW: Why can’t I? You already have Jews who are atheists. Why are they better than me?
Jews: Doesn’t work that way. Once you’re Jewish, you are Jewish for life. However, if you want to become Jewish, you have to accept the religion.
SW: But that’s racist! How come someone who’s born a Jew can be an atheist and still be a Jew, but I can’t be one.
Jews: Because according to Jewish law there is no such thing as a Jewish athiest. Jewish law still recognizes them as Jews regardless of any statements they later make about their religion.
So, now, Sweet Willy, let me tell you again: you cannot have atheist Jews. Jewish law does not recognize them as atheists. Get it? As far as Jewish law goes, they’re still Jews. So, your statement that Jewish law accpets atheist Jews holds no water. Got it?
Zev Steinhardt
Moderator’s Note: Zev, dammit, I said no personal insults in this thread (or anywhere else in this forum). Would it have killed you to just say “Originally posted by Sweet Willy”, and then go on from there with the rest of what you actually posted?