It sucks. I speak from experience, but there’s not a great deal you can actually do about it; you can’t just turn off your feelings; you can’t really walk away from a genuine friendship and you can’t force things to happen against the other person’s will.
It sucks, but you pretty much have to let it run its course; I personally think it’s best to be open and honest about your feelings; not that this will get you what you want, but at least the cards are on the table and if anyone gets hurt, they’ll be hurt by something real, rather than suspected or imagined.
I agree with Mangetout. Last night I started to write a post about a similar experience I had recently, but it was just too long and too personal. Suffice it to say that I have a very good friend that I ended up falling for (and, apparently, she fell for me too). It didn’t work out very well. She had a boyfriend who she wasn’t ready to leave. I tried to be open and fair with her about it, and I think I was, but when she broke up with him I asked her if she wanted to be with me. She told me she wasn’t ready, but somehow we ended up kissing.
Apparently she got scared by this and said she regretted what happened and needed some space. This was a couple months ago and I have talked with her and hung out with her, but it feels uncomfortable some times and I don’t know what to do. She’s back with her boyfriend (who, while ultimately a nice guy, has some problems and doesn’t always treat her well).
So why do I agree with Mangetout? I ‘laid my cards on the table’, so to speak, and it seems to have worked out rather unhappily. Mangetout is right though: you can’t just turn off your feelings. They are there, and, especially if you are really in love, they color your entire existance. It won’t make her love you or want to sleep with you to tell her your feelings, but not telling her will make things more complicated. Things need to run their course, whatever that course may be, and the best way I know of to keep things from running their course is to not be honest.
I should take my own advice really, I haven’t been honest with my friend recently because I am afraid of hurting myself or hurting her. I still think a lot about her and it doesn’t make me happy, I feel like I totally fucked up and possibly ruined one of the most wonderful relationships I’ve ever had. If I had had a truer understanding of her feelings then I would have acted differently (on the other hand, part of the whole problem was, apparently, that she was confused and didn’t know her own feelings).
Run. Fast. Now.
Ok, she is a liar, a schemer, a manipulator, and yet you love her. It seems to me there are only two things you can do: make your feelings known or run far away very fast. I opt for the former. Any other move leaves you wondering what might have been, perhaps for the rest of your life. Hell, I find myself wondering about one of my brother’s friends and I’ve been happily (most of the time) married for over 20 years.
If you are both ready to move into a relationship, and her conniving causes too much pain, you can dump her. You’ll have known pain, but you’ll also know “what-if”.
Gotta disagree. A liar, schemer, and manipulator can do a hell of a lot of damage before you cut ties. I don’t see as how there’s any question about what might be 20 years down the line. Can a person really live happily ever after with a partner like this? You can’t help your feelings for someone else, but you can help how you act on these feelings. I’m with RickJay on this one. You don’t need someone like this in your life.
Lobsang, I want to expand on what I said, lest I sound flippant.
I have been in a similar position, 12 years ago. I know of what you speak. I certainly loved her - boy, did I. With all my heart and soul. She was stunningly beautiful - I mean, head-turning, cars slowed down to look at her as we walked down the street beautiful - brilliantly smart, had a tremendous sense of humour, sexy as all hell, could charm the birds out of the trees. If she had been a decent human being she would have been my perfect mate. But she was a liar, a schemer, and a manipulator; in short, she was a non-violent psychopath. She used me big time. I was a fool.
Every minute I was with her just added to my pain and was a complete waste of my time. It set my life back two years, at least, hurt my education, hurt my career, hurt my other relationships, and blew my chances with at least three beautiful women (What can I say, I used to be a sexy beast.) Granted, I lucked out anyway and met Mrs. RickJay, my true soulmate, much later on, but what if that hadn’t happened and the right woman had been one of the ones I blew my chance with in 1994? Or if Mrs. RickJay had come along then, instead of later? Where the fuck would I be now, huh? Not happily married with a beautiful baby daughter, I’ll tell you that.
Once I cut ties with her I felt a million times better and my life improved a thousanfold. It was honestly like night to day. A weight had been lifted from my shoulders. She, on the other hand, is an unemployed loser. And she dragged a lot of guys down after me, too.
You seem like a legitimately nice guy and so I will be honest and forthright: Get rid of her, now. I don’t mean a cold shoulder; I mean, physically avoid her. You cannot see the truth right now; your vision is clouded over my love. She’ll use you like a dishrag. Telling her your feeling is the worst thing you can do because she might opt to keep using her. Never speak to her again. Please learn from the experience of others, especially me; if you do so you may be saving yourself a LOT of pain, a lot of wasted time and lost opportunities. Oh, and date other women as fast as you frickin’ can.
Lobsang, I’ve spent a lot of time hanging around this board with you, and I like you. I like you so much I’ve occaisionally regretted your being on the other side of the Atlantic from me.
What on earth would you want from a liar, a schemer, and a manipulator? To me, the very definition of a friend included someone you can trust, and there’s no way I’d want a lover I couldn’t trust. No matter how good in bed he might be, the lack of trust would freeze me up and make me lousy in bed. You say she’s helped you out. The thing is, there’s a big difference between helping someone out because you expect to get something in return, even if it’s only the psychological hold of reminding that person how much they owe you, and helping someone out because they need it and it’s your pleasure to help them.
Look for someone better, lad. Lord knows you deserve it!
CJ
I and most guys I’ve met had this girlfriend at some point in their lives, usually at a point in young adulthood when they’re questioning their base values and philosophies. “What do I want to do with my life?”, “What’s important to me?” and other such questions. Non-violent psychopaths (and not-so-non-violent psychopaths) latch on to those vibes like sharks to blood in the water. All you can really do is cut your losses and chalk the whole thing up to a learning experience.
You know, RickJay, come to think of it, my pet psycho and I parted ways about 12 years ago, too. Are you by any chance in your mid-30’s?
I turn 34 next week, actually. I think you’re right; this is a thing guys go through in their late teens/early 20s.
I’m not sure that it’s that NVPs latch onto that, I think that’s just an age where one is attracted to sex and danger and not smart enough to see it isn’t worth it.
Tha’s a difficult situation. I’ve been in love with a friend. I let her know about it, she wasn’t interested, I decided not to see her for a while (one year or so), assuming that I would get over it. I saw her again, I fell for her again. I spent a long time seeing her quite often, in love, thinking about her all the time, acting like I was “just a friend”, and…always hoping, of course.
Eventually, she settled with a friend of mine I had presented to her. I can tell you it was painful. I went on seeing them, and I was still loving her. Eventually I got over it, but it took a long time.
Now, we’re still friends. I like her a lot, and I’m very happy to have her as a friend. But the question is : was it worth it? From my current point of view, of course, I’ve no regret because I forgot about the hardship and kept a truly wonderful friend. But from my former self point of view, which is the OP’s point of view? If I had known what the outcome would be, kwown what I would go through and truly realized it, what would I have done? What should I have done?
Honestly, I cannot tell. Intellectually, I could say “that’s really too much time spent longing for her, to much vain hope, too much dissapointment. I would have been much happier at this time had I chosen not to see her anymore, searched for and met someone else”. But then I think that I wouldn’t have her as a friend now, and I’m like : “No way!”. Of course, on the other hand, I might not have known what I was missing, and I might not have had any regret, either.
Thinking as I type, maybe there would have been a third way : keeping in touch with her, but remotely, seeing her only very occasionnally and trying hard to focus my attention on other girls. Given that she’s really a good friend, I think this would have worked out and that the situation would have eventually been mostly identical once I would have gotten over it. But then again, maybe not. That would probably be the course of action I would try if it happened to me again, though.
Definitely not an easy question. At least not if the girl/woman in question is really a true friend, the kind of you don’t meet many in the course of a life. If she’s only “a friend amongst the two dozens I have” or “a friend only because she isn’t the lover I would want her to be and it’s better than nothing”, then I suppose the better course of action could be to completely forget about her.
This is interesting.
I can relate, because I’m going through something similar as we speak.
My current state of mind is I’m glad I told her how I felt about her, even if she says she never thought of me like that. I would have been perfectly happy going on being platonic friends, but I’m a greedy bastard who wants more, so I’m doing my best to get out of the “just friends” zone I let her put me in.
Unless there are other major obligations to consider, you’re essentially living a lie not to even bring it up.
Sure, sex will change the relationship dynamic. But unless it was a pretty shallow friendship to begin with, not much will change fundamentally.
I am very much in love with one my best friends. At one point we both felt the same way but understood for various reasons it wouldn’t work out. I however am now convinced that she is likely the one for me. Now as tme goes on our lives move in more and more different directions and the possibility of us ever ending up together gets slimmer and slimmer. We live thousands of miles away from eachother. She is going to be moving even farther away to be nearer her family. She’s gotten in touch more and more with her religious side. So there’s all these things that are just big neon lights saying “Move on!” but it’s hard.
Its actually really good that she has one of those pay as you go cellphone plans AND constant financial problems because many a night I have gotten the gumption up to call her and layout on the line and see what happens…then got greeted by the “this PCS cusomer’s phone is currently without service” message.
To those of you who fall in love with people you consider friends, there is hope, you know. Many years ago, there was a guy I considered my best friend. When we met, he had a girlfriend which rendered him strictly off-limits as dating material, but the friendship grew. We stood by each other through various difficulties, including when his girlfriend broke up with him. Finally, one evening about three years after we met, we were hanging uot one evening and he told me he loved me. Now, I had pretty much negative self-esteem in those days and it never occurred to me a guy might fall in love with me so it quite literally took me a few days to work out what was going on. When I did, I realized I loved him. The next night, I found out how much fun kissing could be. I loved him with all my heart and all the rest of that mushy stuff, and I nearly married him. We stayed friends even after our engagement ended.
I do ask one thing of you, though. We swore we would always be friends because a good, true friend is far harder to find that sex or romantic love and far more important. We rekindled things when we’d both moved and were living on opposite sides of the country, but over time, things faded out and eventually he stopped calling me. He never told me when it was over, when I should give up hope. He’s a good man. Wherever he is, I wish him well and I hope he’s happy. It just saddens me that when things ended, I lost not only my love, but my best friend.
CJ
It’s quite complicated. I adore her. She lies to me, I know, she tries to manipulate me (it’s in her nature, I don’t take it personally) which falls foul of the integrity I like to think I have. But one thing she doesn’t do is scheme against me. She tries to scheme with me against others and I make it obvious to her that I am on the fence regarding her opinions of others. I tell her things like “Person X hasn’t done anything to me to make me think that way about them” and Prefix my replies with phrases like “If what you tell me is true…” pretty much implying that I don’t take her word for anything.
In short. I think I occupy a place in her mind that few others do. I give her absolutely no reason to form negative opinions of me (That’s in my nature)
It’s neither. As I said, she’s helped me out without knowing it… so it’s neither to derive pleasure from doing so, nor to expect anything in return. She helped me out by coming into my life and so giving me something/one to live for. I got fit by cycling fuelled by the motivation of her existence. I stopped drinking every night. Two things she has no idea I either did, or did because of her.
I might deserve someone with less issues. But I can’t imagine there existing anyone I would actually want to be with more than her. I grow restless and anxious if she leaves the room for more than a minute. I count the seconds until I get to see her again.
Sounds a bit like my situation with my friend. She didn’t lie to me (as far as I know, of course). She didn’t try to manipulate me any more than is usual (that is to say, we all try to manipulate others, there is good manipulation and bad manipulation).
I definitely listened to her talk bad about people when I didn’t quite share her opinion. I think I’m a fairly non-judgemental person, which is probably why I usually couldn’t share the same depth of anger over other people.
The thing that I find the most similar though, is that you see her as responsible for improvements in your life. I felt like my friend made me realize that I was attractive and a nice guy and I’m grateful for that.
The thing is, I think the credit for these changes (and the changes you made) is a complicated matter. You chose to make those changes, sure she was the motivator, but you chose to make them. You did it because you thought she was worth it, but, as is always the case, it was your idea of who she was is what made it worth it. Did she tell you to lose weight and stop drinking?
I don’t see this as belittling her or her role in your self-improvement, it’s just that you deserve as much credit as anyone else.
Ok, here it is. There is a woman I Iove, have loved for a very long time. Our story is complicated, but the bottom line is, no matter what, I will always love her. It is that simple. It is painful, bittersweet, and joyful. I am a good friend, she is a good friend. I want her and need her with every fiber. She loves me but not in the romantic sense that I love her. Our relationship is not equal, but I realize that and understand and accept this. My concilation is seeing her happieness in life play out in every pursuit and endeavor with or without me. She gives me hope, and in some small way I give the same.
I hold out because it is purpose. She makes me desire to change and become something more than I am. I would do anything for her. It might be hollow, this hope, but it is better than nothing and gives me purpose.
I have reached an equilibrium and maturity and value our love as it is. Friendship and acceptance. I truly value her friendship and all else falls to the wayside. I really do not feel sleighted because her heart and my love are bigger than convention. I wouldn’t trade any of my worst for her best. Unconditional.
Of course, in this case Jim Croce gives fair warning in his lyrics. Lobsang, have you ever heard the song* Thursday*?
Well, it started out just like a dream
And like a dream
I knew that what we had
Would have to end
I was lookin’ for a lifetime lover
And you were lookin’ for a friend
Ok, here goes, with no animosity toward the op. Since this must be the 93rd “omg, I love my FRIEND” thread this month, here’s my take:
If you feel like this about her,
then do something about it!
Enough with the “my friend” bullshit! [del]Tell[/del] Show her how you feel. That you want to get in her pants, that you want an exclusive, intimate and sexual relationship with her.
Primarily, you don’t want her for a friend, you want her as a lover. Go for what you want. If you blow the deal, at least you tried.
A friend is someone you go fishing or to a ballgame with, and drop off at their house after the day is over. Again: You don’t want her for a friend, you want her for a lover!
If you two can be lovers and still like each other as friends, cool, but remember that your primary interest in her is as a lover. If after you’ve hit it with your best shot you can’t get her to be your lover, move on.
You can always find a fishin’ buddy. Girls you feel like this; "I count the seconds until I get to see her again." about don’t pass your way every day. Go for what you want, and drop all the fuckin’ bullshit that starts as, “Oh, my FRIEND”!
Lobsang, man, I sympathize, OK? Before you get all ticked off at what I’m about to say, I really do sympathize. I know how confusing life can get when you’re a little lonely. I know it seems she’s doing you a world of good by merely existing.
That said, I’m having trouble hearing the TV set over the alarms going off in my head reading this. She lies to you and tries to manipulate you? This is not a good person, lob! How exactly do you envision this having a happy ending? All I can say is that if you go through with this relationship, you’d better start taking this shit personally. It’s all about face and respect. If you lose either one in a relationship, you’re headed for the falls in a barrel.
Of course she doesn’t scheme against you. You don’t have anything she wants yet. She probably doesn’t manipulate you as much as she could, either. The scheming and the hardcore manipulation will begin as soon as she wants something from you that you are not willing to provide. It could be money, it could be sex, it could be marriage. Whatever it is, I guarantee you that you have not seen the extent to which she can play this game.
Now I hear you mumbling to yourself under your breath “Oh, Linty, you just don’t know her. You’d have to meet her to know her.”
Lobsang, we do know her. That’s what RickJay, Askia, and I have been padding our postcount trying to tell you. We have met this woman. We have been friends with this woman. We have fucked this woman. We have been fucked over and put through the wringer by this woman. The woman you are going ga-ga over is not unique? She’s not a beautiful snowflake. If you’re lucky, you’ll only meet this type two or three dozen times in your life. If you’re really lucky, you’ll only sleep with this type once.
Lobsang, if I sound a bit bitter, it’s because I used to be. I’ve sat there and said the same thing about my “greatest thing.” Twelve years plus change after wising up and eventually marrying a good woman, I’m not bitter anymore, but I still feel a little silly about how far I let things go. Don’t go down that path, dude. You DO deserve better than this. Jimmy Swaggart deserves better than this.
That’s all I’ve got to say about this, except that if things go south, don’t be afraid to post about it here. No one who’s actually been through this shit is going to point and say “I told you so.” That’s just life.
–Linty
P.S.–One more slight thing. I would bet my rent money for next month that she knows your feelings toward her.
Wow. I cannot believe I never saw it that way before. I don’t even know how to describe.
For the fourth time in five or six years, my initial flirtations with a girl have hit a brick wall upon my finding out she has a boyfriend. Despite the somewhat robotic nature of my writing, I’m actually quite funny and flirty in person, so I can understand if they misunderstood my intentions. Accordingly, I remain very good friends with them, hoping that on our nights out together they attract some new fish back to the boat, sort to speak. All the while I get the impression that things are not alright with the boyfriend. Not that they dump on me about him, but I read people pretty well, and I just get the vibe. This of course gets my hopes up that maybe they will/have realize/realized that it’s me they’ve wanted all along, because who hasn’t seen that movie. I spend a few months in limbo, finally something happens – a move, a transfer, I get fed up or too busy etc. I loose touch for a few months, then learn that soon after “something happened”, she and boyfriend broke up. I lament my bad luck of having just barely missed a window of opportunity with someone I really cared for.
Simply stunning. Thank-you.