Also, you have to wait for five years after you retire to be elected.
Well, there’s a few things you have to consider when looking at DiMaggio:
The “greatest living player” line was PR. DiMaggio would not go anywhere unless he was specifically called that. He was a mean old loner. Even when Joe D. wasn’t dead, there were certainly better living players, like Mays, Aaron, Williams, etc.
DiMaggio did lose three years to the war, so his career numbers were hurt by that.
DiMaggio was a really good center fielder, so he was a better player than the raw hitting totals suggest.
DiMaggio played for NINE World Champions. I mean, my God, the man won the World Series nine times! (Yogi Berra won it ten times, the only man to win it more.) So remember that at the time, he was the best player on the best baseball team that ever existed. That’s quite something, when you think about it.
Never. It has never happened. George Brett was the highest ever with somewhere around 96%. I think Nolan Ryan was actually second (same year?). They made a great Miller Lite commercial with Brett and Robin Yount and jokes where made that Brett MUST be the greatest player all time…
Note: Hank Aaron was NOT selected his first year of eligibility. WHY? I have no idea. Racism? I can’t fathom a reason. Someone please tell me I’m wrong about this, but I think I remember it from the sports century.
(And Yes, Willie Mays is certainly that person. He probably did deserve it over DiMaggio and Williams, but I get the feeling seniority plays a big role. Next would be Aaron. Who after that? Without seniority, Bonds is a good choice. But assumming seniority, who gets it? )
And Thanks for the DiMaggio numbers. Sometimes we must accelerate numbers like that. Kirby Puckett received the benefit of such a process.
Another DiMaggio question: If the trade for Williams for DiMAggio had happened, how differntly would we remember the two?
Off the top of my head I have to add Derrick Thomas to the list of recently retired/not playing NFL players.
This is a great topic, and what’s really intriguing is: which non-glamour position guys make the cut ? When you have to go by something other than numbers, it’s a lot more difficult. I posed the question to Dr. Z at SI, maybe he can put his 2 cents in with a mailbag reply.
You’re wrong about this. Hank Aaron was overwhelmingly elected in his first year of eligibility, which was 1981 (jnducted in 1982.) He received 406 of 415 votes.
The highest percentage of HOF votes ever, incidentally, is Tom Seaver, who received 98.84% support on his first ballot. Only ten players have received 95% support:
If a lot of these seem very recent, HoF voting has changed in structure and purpose over the years, and many early choices had toruble getting elected because ion the early year, there were so many to pick from they couldn’t focus on one candidate. So Joe DiMaggio had to wait three votes to get elected, because some writers wanted to clear out the old guys first, and some wanted the new guys.
It may seem amazing that anyone would think Hank Aaron or Mike Schmidt aren’t Hall of Famers, but there are two kidns of sportswriter who vote against obvious choices like that:
Sportswriters who ascribe to the idiotic “no first ballot” thought process that if good old Joe DiMaggio didn’t get elected on the first ballot, neither should Tom Seaver. Of course, these idiots don’t know why Joe DiMaggio wasn’t elected on the fist ballot.
Sportswriters who - like soooo many sportswriters - want themselves to be part of the story, and so don’t vote for an obvious choie so they can draw attention to themselves and write controversial stories.
Thanks. I knew it didn’t sound right. Racism seemed a bit of a stretch. I don’t know where I got my bad information. Thanks for nipping it in the bud.
So Cobb abd Seaver were ahead of Brett (Ryan, I guess coming the next year)? Again, bad information. What freaking show was I watching? Something on the Crack Network?
If you’re familiar with the dimensions of Boston’s Fenway park vs Yankee Stadium, Williams would have fared much better as a Yankee with that short right field wall. I think Williams would have hit more homeruns there and for a higher batting average. He’d never get bragging rights for his outfield play, but his current title as “Greatest Hitter Who Ever Lived” (that’s how he was introduced during the 1999 all-star game) would definitely be enhanced as many people thought if Williams played at Yankee Stadium it would have possible he, and not Babe would have held the career homerun record.
And when you look at Williams’s number, keep in mind he lost 5 years of baseball to fight in WWII and Korea while he was in his prime.
John Thorn and Pete Palmer address this issue in their 1984 book The Hidden Game of Baseball. In Chapter 5, “There’s No Place Like Home” (pages 97-98) they point out that by 1949, when this trade was very nearly made, DiMaggio’s career had only a couple more years left, while Williams played for almost a decade more (minus the time lost to military service in Korea). It’s unlikely that DiMaggio’s career totals would be substantially different, and Williams’ stats for that decade would probably have been close to what they were at Boston – Williams hit better at Fenway than Yankee Stadium (BA .361 at Fenway, .309 at Yankee; SLG .652 at Fenway, .543 at Yankee), but he also would not have had to hit against Yankee pitchers, who were around 7% better than the league average during this time (according to Thorn and Palmer), so the effects would nearly cancel each other out. Williams hit homers at Fenway at about the same rate as he did in at Yankee Stadium, so his HR totals likely wouldn’t have been dramatically different, as is often suggested.
Thorn and Palmer also calculated each player’s expected stats had each played their entire careers with the other club (Williams with the Yankees, DiMaggio with Boston). Their answer: it wouldn’t have made a lot of difference with Williams, and DiMaggio would probably have hit about fifteen points higher and hit an extra 50 or so HR (for career totals of .340 and 417, instead of .325 and 361).
Had the trade taken place, DiMaggio’s reputation would be pretty much what it is now, but Williams would likely be regarded even more highly than he is (if that’s possible) because playing for the Yankees would have given him two things the Red Sox never could – lots more World Series appearances, and the additional media exposure that goes along with playing in New York. Had Williams gone to the Yankees in 1949, he’d probably have appeared in at least seven or eight World Series, and the Yankees would have won most of those (as they did without him).