If you have an irrational fear, is it a "you" problem, or "the world's" problem?

I mean, it’s not even clear what even turning this into a “world” problem would involve, nobody building buildings about 3 stories?

I personally find the “It’s always a you problem” attitude very much an old school, “tough it out” attitude that makes me think someone is from a previous era. My belief is that society would be a lot better & more inclusive if we always strived to make reasonable accommodations for those who would benefit from them.

There can be an enormous debate over where the line is drawn at “reasonable” but I find that’s not the debate that people usually get drawn into, it’s mainly one where some people find even the concept of “reasonable” to offend their personal sensibilities.

I always like to draw analogies between mental and physical ailments because society still treats physical ailments as “more real” unfortunately. Let’s talk a look at how society has largely evolved in the treatment of allergies, which can be roughly analogized as the body reacting “irrationally” to certain nutrients.

There definitely still is the attitude of “your allergies are your own business to manage only” but that’s become a distinctly minority view over the years. We’ve had schools go peanut free and airlines, as a matter of policy, request that people don’t consume any peanut products if there’s a sensitive person on the plane. We’ve distributed epipens to strategic locations in case someone suffers from a sudden anaphylactic attack. Restaurant menus nowadays routinely label which items are gluten free and staff are generally trained to identify which common allergens are in which dish and the protocol to ask someone if they’re unsure. We’ve also seen, for example, entire offices willing to switch to scent free detergents/shampoos and forgo cologne because someone in the office having a scent sensitivity. These efforts are patchwork and inconsistent but it’s undeniable that we’ve seen a general, societal evolution on this issue.

There was a lot of pushback then to these efforts and still pushback now but what we discovered was that a lot of the pushback was because people treat change as scary but once these systems get put in place, they’re largely routine and people are happy to be able to provide “reasonable” accommodation to a diverse range of eaters. I think especially on the corporate side (company cafeterias, catered events, conferences etc.), you’ve seen a lot of innovation and push since company employees don’t have a choice of where to dine and there’s real money involved in making sure people don’t feel left out so you can attract the best talent. At the same time, everyone knows you can’t accomodate everyone and a line has to be drawn somewhere and people are generally tolerant that not all their dietary preferences are accommodated as long as you show a genuine commitment to trying.

My attitude is that I didn’t wake up this morning and make you have a phobia and you didn’t wake up this morning to make my day worse so if there’s a reasonable accommodation I can make to make your life a bit easier, I’m happy to do it. If you need me to cross the street because you have an irrational fear of dogs, sure, happy to do it, it’s no skin off my nose. If you want to meet me at a ground floor coffeeshop instead of my high rise office because you have a fear of heights, sure, let’s try that. Let’s at least experiment with accomodations before dismissing them out of hand as “too unreasonable”.

I want to live in a world where people feel comfortable expressing their irrational phobias so we can work together to find a way for us all to be happy rather than feeling the stigma means that they alone have to find solutions in order to not bother other people. It’s a long way to get there though, there’s still such a pervasive element of shame around mental health that needs to be overcome. Sadly, we’re still a long ways away from that world so my attitude is whatever can help get us there sooner, I’m in support of.

I had a funny encounter this morning. I was going to a doctors appointment. I put on my usual uniform. Hoodie, leggings and socks and crocs.
This outfit just drives the Lil’wrekker insane.
Of course she brought up my socks didn’t match. And “Oh, Ma, those crocs!”

I’m kinda cranky today, so I said to hush, girl.

She said aren’t you afraid you’ll have to run from something?

For a short minute I had a bit of a phobiactic (made that word up, I think) rush of adrenalin.

Then, I looked down at her “new” boots. New stiff leather, at least 4 in heels and a flippy skirt.
She can “run-way” walk all she wants thru the house. She ain’t runnin’ nowhere today.
I suspect when she comes home she’ll have her raggedy Uggs on.

I really like @Ulreida’s explanation of the phobia process as well as @Shalmanese’s societal comments.

But here’s an issue.

Agreed.

As pointed out upthread my bro might differ a bit on this.

He is a dog enthusiast who owns multiple dogs. He is not in the least phobic but as a fully grown large man was attacked and bitten a bunch by a leashed Rottweiler where the person at the other end of said leash was utterly inadequate to the actual mission of controlling her dog.

He’s not phobic now, he wasn’t phobic then. But when he sees a large dog attached to a small person he knows the person is of no use; the dog will have it’s way with that person, and perhaps with other passersby or with him if the mood so strikes.

Eh, so parse that statement to be just, “a dog who can’t reach you”. Could be fenced in, could be a dog that can be controlled with a leash, whatever.

I would say it is “his” problem. I have an abnormal fear of heights. I can’t call it irrational since heights are dangerous. (Dogs can be too.) But it is certainly abnormal. About 35 years ago, less than ten years after the eruption I drove up to Mt. St. Helen from the east and that was fine. But driving back down put a cliff on the right and I just could not deal with it and changed seats with my son who drove down while I sat in the right seat with my eyes closed. When I visited the Grand Canyon, I could not even watch people walking along near the edge, even though there was a concrete barrier (but less than 2 feet high) along the edge. I was once in an Imax theater and had to close my eyes during a mountain climbing scene. Just could not watch.

On the other hand, flying doesn’t bother me at all. Go figure. I once even “piloted” a plane for a half hour. “Just keep I-90 below us” said my brother. We were flying a 4 seat Cessna from New Orleans to Lake Charles, LA where he was stationed.

By definition, I’d suggest that IS NOT a dog that CAN’T reach you.

This matches my own experience. I have considerable discomfort with being a few metres above the ground, for example in a tree or on a ladder, but being seated in a light aircraft at a height of 1500 feet, with the world laid out below me like a tapestry, does not trigger the feeling of being at height at all. I can’t fully explain it, but it is as if the floor of the aircraft itself takes on the role of “the ground”.

A friend of mine was a fire chief. So acquainted with, in fact trained on, very tall ladders, roofs, bucket trucks, etc.

He once commented that fear of heights typically peaks around 30-40 feet.

Have climbed a fire truck ladder up above 50 feet, I agree w his assessment.

You may have a form of vertigo. Not where the world seems to be spinning, maybe there’s another name, but your visual sense of proportion and distances goes out of whack based on the points of reference you see.

What bothers me is anything that the back of my head thinks is insecure footing.

Airplanes? No problem. (Not for that reason anyway.) Tall buildings? No problem. Entirely flat parking lot with patches of ice? Problem. Steep incline, with what seems to most people perfectly good footing? Often a problem, if going downhill.

Not vertigo, but it does seem to be entirely visual. There is a bridge from Delaware to Annapolis, MD at the north end of the Chesapeake that I have driven a number of times without noticing any particular problem. It is rather long though. I was utterly astonished to read that a number of people cannot drive it. To the extent that a few people make a livelihood by waiting at one end for someone to hire them to drive over it for them. For me the existence of guardrails makes it perfectly safe. Similarly, I was disappointed that the Confederation Bridge from New Brunswick to PEI was configured so that you cannot see the ocean below. Apparently, that would have made it undriveable for many. But again the guardrails would have made it perfectly safe for me. I once walked halfway across the Golden Gate Bridge on the pedestrian path and it didn’t bother me at all to see the bay below. While my companion was telling me all about the 998 people who had jumped over the guardrail. (There is now a net to catch jumpers.) My companion for that walk was Sergei Brin. Yes, that Sergei Brin. He was then working out his idea for a new search engine and I heard a talk he gave on the subject.

That’s not what I’m saying at all.

Let’s say I’m suddenly half my age and unmarried (a wizard did it!). If I see an attractive woman in some public place, like a grocery store, park, or somewhere like that, is it a reasonable thing for me to avoid talking to her, because she might be a sexual assault survivor/trauma survivor?

I’d say it’s completely unreasonable to expect that. Now if she’s giving off every indication that she doesn’t want to be talked to, then I should read the room and not talk to her, but if not, there’s no reason not to talk to her, having no other information than the fact that I find her attractive.

Similarly, if I had a dog (well trained, friendly, and non-scary breed) and was out walking it, am I obligated or expected to avoid walking it near other people because they might be afraid of dogs? Of course not.

That’s why I’m describing those things as their issue to deal with, as neither of the behaviors I describe are unreasonable at all for normal people.

The chemical sensitivity one is a bit different; I can see close co-workers not wearing odoriferous stuff around her, but what she’d grouse about was someone who worked across the building having cologne that lingered in the elevator, or who left a (mild) scent trail as they walked by. Not unreasonable, but she apparently thought she had the right to demand that everyone not wear anything with scents, regardless of where they worked in proximity to her.

But…Men(not you Dopers, of course) in general, do not read signals of “back off” very well.

Especially drinking.

As a woman that may have been sexually assaulted you expect a man to know. How can he?
Unless you wear it on a teeshirt.
I can see women with issues really easily, but not everyone can.

There are situations I avoid out of my fears. Which are numerous.
Mostly to do with facing a person and speaking, who I dont know.
I’m to the point of being nearly unapproachable. By design.
Do you think this has ever stopped a creeper from hitting on me? Not that I can tell.

Had one today at a dang Doctors office waiting room.
He sat too close. Bad juju. He said “hi”. Didnt acknowledge.
He tried to talk to Ivy. She was reading, acted like she didnt hear. She poked my thigh. Knowing I’d run if pushed.
He asked if we could swap numbers.
I got up and moved across the room. Ivy followed. Averted.

Why can’t these type of men not sense there’s no going there, by body language, no talking, no eye contact?

Now, if I had been in a bar, meet and greet or social gathering I’d assume a different social responsibility to be social or don’t be there at all.
If I had been sexually assaulted I think this is where I’d first avoid going, alone. In a trusted pack of friends, maybe. I’d be very careful of my choices.
After therapy and you’re stronger you can venture out.

But, never expect anyone can read your mind. You must be prepared to get up and move across the room. I’ve learned to do this with finesse. I think.

Sorry, the workmen have no reason to believe you. When I was delivering mail one summer a dog, sitting peacefully on a lawn, unleashed, decided to attack me and bit my pants leg before I maced him. The owner came running out, saying the dog was so gentle. Right. If the dog did bite me, I would have maced the owner. A guy in the post office I worked in got badly bitten. I’m sure the owner of that dog thought it was safe.
We raised guide dog puppies, who have been bred for 50 years to eliminate any big of aggressiveness. Yet we kept them indoors when workmen came. I always kept our dogs on a leash when walking them, not because I thought they’d attack anyone, but to keep them safe from traffic. The dogs were worth more than I was.

Dogs, much as I love them, are still animals. And sometimes their behavior changes as they age.

I was very uncomfortable with dogs, not phobic, but definitely uncomfortable, probably from almost getting bitten. But when we got a dog I learned how they worked, and found that I was probably responsible for most of the behavior from the dog I didn’t like. Since then I’ve had no problems.

A mail carrier, delivery person knows about dogs in that situation. There’s no doubt about that.

Owner completely being irresponsible. In my view.

We had a neighbor call 911 on us because our dog was “intimidating” them. It was our dachshund laying on the back of our couch staring at them through a window.

Dachshunds are wicked.
Maybe he was mouthing curse words. :smiling_face:

And every one of those guys probably has a story of the dunce who said they had perfect verbal control of their dogs and promptly lost control. I’m sure you can turn your dogs into stone with a slight twitch of your eyebrow but there is no way they can know or should trust the word of some random dude.

Now since they said the guy has a “phobia” of dogs, almost by definition it makes it his problem because it is irrational, but in general a polite request to temporarily restrain your dogs to provide work access is perfectly rational and does not merit a simple “no”.

Yeah, this. Sure, go up and talk to some woman you find attractive. Then go by her cues that your attention is or isn’t welcome. Ignoring back-off cues is annoying to women who feel safe and frightening to those who don’t, and in either case is shitty behavior. If you have trouble reading cues, ask a woman friend for lessons.