Who are you, their PR manager? Do you even know how many times this happened? It wasn’t one, just FYI. I’d love to hear your opinion on offenses two through five.
Given this family’s insane religious beliefs, which are totally up for criticism here, its highly doubtful that they relieved the girls of any guilt. They were likely told that their immodesty caused Josh’s actions. Michelle Duggar looks like a Stockholm Syndrome victim herself, who knows what kind of crazy shit she’s telling her girls.
Unless you’re talking about some other family, this incident you described didn’t happen to the Duggars. It was multiple times and multiple girls, not a one time feel while playing
I think what makes Josh Duggar’s actions disturbingly different from normal pubescent male curiosity is not just his age and the age of his victims, but the fact that he perpetuated this multiple times…even after word got out to his parents. That raises pathological flags to me.
Your typical teenager would be mortified if they were caught acting sexually inappropriately, with their sisters no less. Perhaps Josh was mortified, but clearly not enough to stop doing it. I’m inclined to think he had–and probably still has–a compulsion to molest.
For people to treat this as run-of-the-mill brotherly hijinks is a daggone shame, but I guess I shouldn’t be too surprised.
The lesson in this is that boys and men–even if they are relatives–can’t be trusted around girls and women without elaborate controls in place. What a wonderful message these kids have been brought up with. Isn’t it sad that the other boys were prevented from having normal relationships with their sisters (and vice versa), just because Josh had a problem keeping his hands to himself? By banning hide-and-seek between girls and boys, what is communicated is that there something sinister or sexually naughty about the game. Same with males babysitting. This is a shame.
I tend to be very, very skeptical about claims made by former members of groups.
These people were obviously very dissatisfied in these groups and it colors their views. In addition, when they come to the media looking for 15 minutes of fame they have every incentive to make their story as lurid as possible.
So, who can you trust? You can’t trust current members of groups to a) be honest and b) have a wider perspective about what makes their group odd.
If you’d like, you can read the perspective of our own Lasciel, who did not herself choose to leave the Quiverfull movement, but was raised in it and then pushed out by other members after the death of her father. She’s got both good and bad things to say about it. Is that a balanced enough perspective for you?
No, I didn’t say that. I asked whose testimony you will accept.
I think it’s logical to accept the repeated claims of multiple people, both within and without the movement. Where there’s enough smoke, I’m looking for fires, not knitting needles.
Yes, although she doesn’t use the term brainwashing. But unusual (I don’t like the word “unnatural,” but I think it also works in this case) childrearing practices and a lack of surprise that this happened and that the Duggars handled it in the way they did, yes.
The Duggars’ childrearing practices aren’t secret. They’ve been on public display for ten seasons.
If there’s no one whose testimony can be accepted uncritically, then you need to be skeptical of them all. Casting doubt on one source doesn’t enhance the credibility of another.
You seem to be implying that you need to find someone “whose testimony you will accept”, and if one source is discounted then you accept the other. But that’s not logical.
I agree with that. I wasn’t commenting on something that was attested to by “multiple people, both within and without the movement”. I was commenting on the claims of one person.
That’s all fine. But we’re not discussing brainwashing or anyone’s childrearing practices. What we’re discussing - it’s included in my first post on the subject - is the claim that “sexual abuse of girls by their brothers and other male relatives in this cult is very widespread”. Has lasciel asserted that “sexual abuse of girls by their brothers and other male relatives in this cult is very widespread”?
Those defending the Duggars… you are fans aren’t you?
All I can think of is that my dad thought I was sleeping too, and I fucking remember every time. And this story has agitated me so much I try to avoid it for the most part. I thought I could deal with it today but then I see the defense, and what people will say to cover up something truly horrible for a child to experience. Now they are claiming that everyone is on a witch hunt and the ones who expose them are hurting their daughters more than the young man ever did. That’s hogwash. They are the ones who hurt them, allowing it to be covered up and used their celebrity status to shame people for being gay or trans when the truth is they are the ones who allowed the true perversion to go on.
I don’t know, maybe it’s because of the hell I’ve been through my whole life from being sexually assaulted by a family member who claimed he didn’t think I’d know because I was sleeping, maybe because children younger than Josh Duggar raped my six year old daughter, fully aware of the pain they were causing her. Every time I see someone defending them all I see is a desperate fool defending child molestation just because it was some celebrity Christian family.
I really don’t know anything about the Duggars. My response was based more on general touching by siblings durring early teens. Every little glitch that boys and girls go through in life does not have to be life changing. I would agree that a boy who acts out in this way should be watched and monitored closely as it does point to some scary tendencies but I would also hazard to guess the the vast majority of boys that have done this grow up to be normal responsible men. His life doesn’t have to be ruined over an incident and neither does the girls.
I never trusted older boys around my kids period. Boys are prone to making bad decisions when they are going through puberty. Yes it is wrong but it has been happening since the stone age and doesn't seem to be stopping as of yet.
I think the OP’s question is impossible to answer because I cannot separate the religious fundamentalism from the sexual repression and dysfunction. People in religious cults do not make sensible decisions in the same way that people who are not in religious cults make them. They are operating under a different set of morals and values.
If I were the Duggars, I wouldn’t be in a goddamn Fundie cult in the first fucking place.
If I were the Duggars, I’d be giving my children age-appropriate, open, honest, approachable sex education, along with all the other things I would have to teach as a parent.
If I were the Duggars, AND we weren’t members of a horrible Fundie cult, AND my kids were otherwise developmentally, emotionally, physically, and intellectually stable and well-adjusted, then therapy for everyone. The perpetrator is age-appropriately held responsible for his actions and immediately separated from the victims. I would be holding myself responsible as somehow having fucked up royally, having raised a sexual predator in my family, unless and until a licensed psychologist officially diagnosed my little perpetrator with an actual physiological condition that precluded any teaching I’d administered throughout the kid’s life. (IOW, if it’s nature and not nurture, and a smartypants doctor could prove that, then I wouldn’t blame myself.)
Full Disclosure: I was a victim of sexual abuse as a teen, AND my family were members of a controlling fundie religious cult. As the victim, I was punished for being a victim, no therapy was received, and I was blamed and not protected by all the adults who were charged with my care and wellbeing. My own parents threw me right under the bus, so this is very much a close-to-home sort of thing. I would never treat my children the way my parents treated me and the way the Duggars are treating their daughters. But I know what it feels like to be a Duggar daughter, only I had slightly fewer siblings. From my chair, it looks to me like the Duggars made the exact set of decisions I’d expect Fundie cult parents to make.
I just think you cannot underestimate the influence the Quiverfull doctrine has on this entire situation, from how it started to how it’s being handled now. These culty, super-religious, controlling ideologies are terribly patriarchal and clearly value female children much less than the male children. This kind of thinking is driving every decision the Duggars make, including how the daughters dress and conduct themselves and why it’s their fault Josh abused them.
Have the Duggars said anything which indicates they think it’s the girls’ fault that Josh abused them, or is this completely a projection based on your own experience?
That’s the problem with your analysis though. There hasn’t been any victim blaming. THe Duggars took the accusations seriously rather than resorting to denial, which is unfortunately what most families do in that situation.
It’s certainly fair to say the Duggars should have done something else, but until someone can show me a real world example of a family handling it better than the Duggars did, I’m not inclined to judge them harshly. The vast bulk of situations like these are allowed to go on forever with no intervention from the family. At best, the problem is usually ignored, at worst the victim is blamed or called a liar.
I also see a lot of criticism of the Duggars’ “fundie cult”, but it seems to me that their cultish moral values are what led to them believing the accusers rather than trying to deny or blame the victim. When you believe that we’re all sinners, ruled by desires of the flesh, it’s easy to believe that your son can do horrible things. Whereas non-religious families often seem to be under the impression that their kids can do no wrong.
I have spent the past 25 years doing volunteer work with recovering addicts and alcoholics. The great majority of these people have suffered from abuse and molestation to one degree or another.
One thing I find interesting is that amoung the ones who truly do recover and move on in life many of the women have changed their stories. They often admit to being awake and playing asleep because they enjoyed the attention. They admit to being casualy seductive and making the boy feel it was all his idea. Kids are kids, screw guilt. Parents need to step up to the plate and deal with things like this as they come up. Explain to the kids that things like this might happen but should never happen again.
Kids using bad judgment can be a learning experience and does not have to be a negative life changer.