If You Were the Duggars...

[Urbanredneck]

@Reluctant_A

There seems to be entirely too many people in this thread who are entirely too willing to dismiss completely abhorrent behavior as “kids being kids.” It’s very disquieting.

Where? Who said that? I think people are saying teens do stupid things. Nobody said it was right.

I think the family did what they could.

[Urbanredneck]

@LavenderBlue

Most families don’t continue to have children after being unable to protect their existing kids from sexual abuse.

Most families don’t go on national television and present themselves as perfect families with this kind of shit in their closet.

Most families don’t run around on television telling grown women they shouldn’t be allowed access to birth control or that gays stink.

Most families don’t force their older children to act as surrogate parents for younger kids because they are morons who have so many kids they can’t parent them.

Add to that, most families are not offered $25,000-$40,000 a week to have a tv crew come in and take pictures but I can tell you there are plenty of families out there who would do it. Look at that show about the family of little people “Little People Big World”. Look at all the families who signed up to be on “Wife Swap”. . People want money.

Here is a site about reality tv shows dating back to the 70’s. LINK

Frankly the Duggars are better than shows like “Toddlers in Tiaras” or “Pint Size Brawlers”.

[Freudian_Slit]

@Urbanredneck

Frankly the Duggars are better than shows like “Toddlers in Tiaras” or “Pint Size Brawlers”.

Everything about them is abhorrent, from their desire to pump out more children than they can care for because they want to outbreed heathens to their oppressive views on women. And let’s not forget all the good work they do trying to make life shitty for LGBTQ people. (Why do “family values” so often translate to trying to destroy other people’s families?)

monstro pointed out that we live in a society where people can justify police shooting a 12-year-old black child but see a 15-year-old white one as just a kid who messed up. Similarly, the Duggars espouse some disgusting, downright poisonous beliefs. Somehow I don’t think you’d be so gung ho on them if they were a gigantic family of Muslims (even a progressive family), but their beliefs are as medieval as many fundamentalist Muslims.

From Newsweek:

Cheryl Lindsey Seelhoff, a former Quiverfull writer who left the movement, says that the lifestyle is frequently one of unrelenting duty and labor that leaves women little recourse if the demands of their lives prove too much to bear. “The Quiverfull movement holds up as examples men like the Duggars … all men of means. But for every family like this, there are ten or fifty or one hundred Quiverfull families living in what most would consider to be poverty … Mothers are in a constant cycle, often, of pregnancy, breastfeeding, and the care of toddlers.” Women are expected to feed and care for a large family on what are frequently limited resources, and the strain leads some to suffer clinical levels of exhaustion and self-neglect. The work that mothers can’t manage usually falls to their eldest daughters, who learn early that their role in life is domestic, as helpmeets to their parents and later their husbands, and as mothers to many children.

[Reluctant_A]

@Urbanredneck

Where? Who said that? I think people are saying teens do stupid things. Nobody said it was right.

Yeah, I’m not seeing the difference between that and “kids will be kids.” And, just because “nobody said it was right” doesn’t mean that people are not dismissing this. ‘Dismiss,’ in this context, meaning that the people chalking this up to “teens doing stupid stuff” are not reacting to this with nearly enough revulsion.

[Reluctant_A]

@Urbanredneck

Frankly the Duggars are better than shows like “Toddlers in Tiaras” or “Pint Size Brawlers”.

That’s a real, real low bar, chief.

[HoneyBadgerDC]

@Reluctant_A

Yeah, I’m not seeing the difference between that and “kids will be kids.” And, just because “nobody said it was right” doesn’t mean that people are not dismissing this. ‘Dismiss,’ in this context, meaning that the people chalking this up to “teens doing stupid stuff” are not reacting to this with nearly enough revulsion.

I have no idea what the statistics on things like this happening are but I do know that it is common enough to be considered a challenge of raising kids that we all hope we will never face. Adding guilt and shame to a bad decision driven by hormones does nothing for either of the children involved. It does not have to be a dramatic life changing event. If it does happen a best outcome might be turned into a learning experience and a little blip in the childrens lives.

This reminds me of homophobia, kind of a contest to see who can show the most disgust. Everyone is afraid if they don't show major revulsion they will appear to approve of this behavior. Evidenced by the number of politicians and civic leaders who come out the strongest against things like this and turn out to be the guilty ones.

[Surreal]

@Guinastasia

For fuck’s sake, this isn’t a liberal/conservative thing! People aren’t going after the Duggars because of politics. They’re going after them because of their actions.

The SDMB’s hatred of the Duggars certainly predates the time that this scandal was publicized. Here are a few comments about the Duggars from 2011:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14442196&postcount=28

By this stage she must have skid marks instead of stretch marks.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14442892&postcount=47

Cats are better mothers that (sic) that stupid slitch.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14442990&postcount=51

I don’t think most big families have a betting pool for when mom’s uterus will prolapse.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14445813&postcount=96

Think green roast beef shower curtains, flapping in the breeze of a queef like giant elephant ears.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14449712&postcount=123

I would seriously advocate preventing them from breeding like cockroaches.

There’s even a quote from you from back 2011:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14463775&postcount=156

At this point, she could probably push that pony out in five minutes.

I think the real reason for all of the hateful comments we’ve seen here over the years about the Duggars here is simply jealousy. For various reasons a lot of people here can’t reproduce (cat women, gays, post-menopausals, 40 year old virgins, etc.) and are appalled that some women can reproduce so readily.

[Antinor01]

@Surreal

The SDMB’s hatred of the Duggars certainly predates the time that this scandal was publicized. Here are a few comments about the Duggars from 2011:
I think the real reason for all of the hateful comments we’ve seen here over the years about the Duggars here is simply jealousy. For various reasons a lot of people here can’t reproduce (cat women, gays, post-menopausals, 40 year old virgins, etc.) and are appalled that some women can reproduce so readily.

I’m far from jealous of them. I don’t reproduce because I choose not to. I used to babysit for a family of 8 kids and have a number of friends with large families.

This particular family I have a strong dislike for for reasons well beyond their over-fertility.

[Urbanredneck]

@Freudian_Slit

Everything about them is abhorrent, from their desire to pump out more children than they can care for because they want to outbreed heathens to their oppressive views on women. And let’s not forget all the good work they do trying to make life shitty for LGBTQ people. (Why do “family values” so often translate to trying to destroy other people’s families?)
:

Ahh… thats the real issue isnt it? The politics. I wonder if some of you give a hoot about the actual girls abused and are just happy for a chance to go after a political enemy?

I wonder how you would treat someone who is a gay ally if something bad came out about them?

[Urbanredneck]

@HoneyBadgerDC

I have no idea what the statistics on things like this happening are but I do know that it is common enough to be considered a challenge of raising kids that we all hope we will never face. Adding guilt and shame to a bad decision driven by hormones does nothing for either of the children involved. It does not have to be a dramatic life changing event. If it does happen a best outcome might be turned into a learning experience and a little blip in the childrens lives.

This reminds me of homophobia, kind of a contest to see who can show the most disgust. Everyone is afraid if they don't show major revulsion they will appear to approve of this behavior. Evidenced by the number of politicians and civic leaders who come out the strongest against things like this and turn out to be the guilty ones.

Very true.

[Freudian_Slit]

@Urbanredneck

Ahh… thats the real issue isnt it? The politics. I wonder if some of you give a hoot about the actual girls abused and are just happy for a chance to go after a political enemy?

I wonder how you would treat someone who is a gay ally if something bad came out about them?

You’re making it sound like I’m doing some minute hair-splicing type of criticizing. I don’t think anyone gets to oppress women and make life a living hell for gay people and hide behind “politics.”

[Omega_Glory]

@HoneyBadgerDC

I have no idea what the statistics on things like this happening are but I do know that it is common enough to be considered a challenge of raising kids that we all hope we will never face. Adding guilt and shame to a bad decision driven by hormones does nothing for either of the children involved.

I really don’t see why it would be a bad thing for someone to feel guilty and ashamed about molesting someone. Why should hormones be a get out of jail/guilt free card?

[HoneyBadgerDC]

@Omega_Glory

I really don’t see why it would be a bad thing for someone to feel guilty and ashamed about molesting someone. Why should hormones be a get out of jail/guilt free card?

They should feel guilty if they are normal kids, if they don’t feel guilty they may have deeper problems. They also need to learn to forgive themselves and move on. there is a process involved in this that starts with an apology. If an apology is not possible then simply resigning themselves to never repeat behavior like this again is all that should be neccessary to resolve them of guilt and allow them to live a normal life.

Believe it or not, hormones are a powerful drug that can influence behavior. Some kids aren't driven as much as others and some have better self control. But the bottom line is that if they learned their lesson they should feel good about forgiving themselves and moving on.

[Guinastasia]

@Urbanredneck

How the hell do you know anything? You know none of these people personally.

And you do? If so, please enlighten us.

[Omega_Glory]

@HoneyBadgerDC

They should feel guilty if they are normal kids, if they don’t feel guilty they may have deeper problems. They also need to learn to forgive themselves and move on. there is a process involved in this that starts with an apology. If an apology is not possible then simply resigning themselves to never repeat behavior like this again is all that should be neccessary to resolve them of guilt and allow them to live a normal life.

Believe it or not, hormones are a powerful drug that can influence behavior. Some kids aren't driven as much as others and some have better self control. But the bottom line is that if they learned their lesson they should feel good about forgiving themselves and moving on.

It’s possible to live a normal life and still carry guilt, or remorse, for what you’ve done.

Hormones absolutely influence behavior, along with poor impulse control, strong emotions etc. but if you have so little control over yourself that you keep hurting other people, it’s going to take more to get you fit to be in society than you simply resigning yourself to never do it again.

[Reluctant_A]

@HoneyBadgerDC

I have no idea what the statistics on things like this happening are but I do know that it is common enough to be considered a challenge of raising kids that we all hope we will never face. Adding guilt and shame to a bad decision driven by hormones does nothing for either of the children involved. It does not have to be a dramatic life changing event. If it does happen a best outcome might be turned into a learning experience and a little blip in the childrens lives.

This reminds me of homophobia, kind of a contest to see who can show the most disgust. Everyone is afraid if they don't show major revulsion they will appear to approve of this behavior. Evidenced by the number of politicians and civic leaders who come out the strongest against things like this and turn out to be the guilty ones.

Since I (so I am told) misunderstood you so badly the last time, I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and figure that this post doesn’t mean what my eyes are trying to tell me it means.

[Mighty_Girl]

I have a 10 year old, twice the age of the youngest victim. Why anyone, even a 14 year old, would look at her with sexual curiosity is beyond me. 14 year old teens want to touch other kids their age (depending on their sexual preference), kids not their siblings.

That anyone would think this was in the same universe as normal troubles me tremendously.

[LavenderBlue]

@Surreal

I think the real reason for all of the hateful comments we’ve seen here over the years about the Duggars here is simply jealousy. For various reasons a lot of people here can’t reproduce (cat women, gays, post-menopausals, 40 year old virgins, etc.) and are appalled that some women can reproduce so readily.

Maybe many of us think you shouldn’t just reproduce. You should actually be a parent.

[raventhief]

@HoneyBadgerDC

I have spent the past 25 years doing volunteer work with recovering addicts and alcoholics. The great majority of these people have suffered from abuse and molestation to one degree or another.

**One thing I find interesting is that amoung the ones who truly do recover and move on in life many of the women have changed their stories. They often admit to being awake and playing asleep because they enjoyed the attention. They admit to being casualy seductive and making the boy feel it was all his idea.** Kids are kids, screw guilt. Parents need to step up to the plate and deal with things like this as they come up. Explain to the kids that things like this might happen but should never happen again. 

  Kids using bad judgment can be a learning experience and does not have to be a negative life changer.

@HoneyBadgerDC

Just the opposite of what you are saying, **the adult is always at fault. What it does say is that a big part of the damage associated with molestation is a result of repressed guilt and shame and blaming themselves. **Often they feel guilt about getting someone else in trouble when they feel it is their fault. It is always the adult fault regardless of wether or not a kid was flirting with them.

The young Dugar boy souns like he has some serious issues while in a lot of cases all the parties involved grow up to be responsible well adjust adults with no interference from law enforcement. Trying to be too preemptive and bringin law enforcement or social workers too soon would end up compounding the damage done.

(Emphasis added.) This is where I am getting a little confused. In the first quote, you say that the kids who recover the best are the ones who admit that they “enjoyed the attention” and were “seductive.” That sounds like in order to recover, the girls in question should accept their complicity in their own sexual assault. And frankly it’s gross - a girl who was molested just pretended to be asleep because secretly she liked it and wanted it?

Then you say that no, the girls are not to blame, it’s the adult’s fault, and the victims should not feel guilty, but they sometimes do, and that is a source of the damage? So if a girl just admits that she liked the attention (ugh, btw) and was seductive, she’s recover more fully but at the same time she shouldn’t feel guilty because it doesn’t matter if she flirted or liked the attention or acted seductively? The girl shouldn’t blame herself but she should admit her own role in her abuse?

[llcoolbj77]

I can’t believe I am wading in to this, but here goes…

I am a public defender representing mostly juveniles; including several juvenile sex offenders. I have two small children, and most of the prosecutors I work with have small children. We often discuss what we would do if we caught our kids acting out sexually. And it is a fucking quagmire.

Let me say, with some authority, that going the court route can be helpful. With the right combination of prosecutor, judge, attorney, probation officer, therapist, parents, race, socioeconomic background, and resources, there can be some real success with juvenile sex offenders. And the recidivism rates are much lower than with adults. HOWEVER, the stars do not usually align that way. Take any one of those factors out, and things can get bad really quickly.

Let’s assume Josh was caught in my jurisdiction. He is 14. He had multiple victims, with multiple incidents, and some as young as 5. He is white, with involved parents, so maybe the prosecutor would not automatically jump to certifying him as an adult. But they might try. He could not go home, so unless the family could afford residential treatment, he would be in juvenile detention. His psychosexual eval (with the facts we know) would put him at a moderate to high risk level to recidivate. If he’s lucky, he escapes with no felony convictions. If he’s not, he gets juvenile felony convictions and the juvenile registry. He is at risk, however, for being certified as an adult, prison time (in adult prison) and the adult sex offender registry. Life over. Game over. Done. And don’t forget what CPS might do with all the other kids in the home that Mom and Dad were not able to protect.

Knowing all this… what would I do? If my sweet kid did something unspeakable to my other sweet kid? I don’t know. I would do everything in my power to protect both children.