Is there a Scientologist student who wishes to do a short demonstration on their religion? So long as it follows the same guidelines in the OP what’s the issue?
I’m OK with children learning about other religions on a voluntary basis.
How much do you know about Scientology? If Islam is controversial, Scientology would be something else… Though frankly, I want to see someone try it, and then hopefully the conclusion will be that laicite is the only answer.
Scientists like this guy?
I’m sorry for how you were raised, but your experience doesn’t excuse bigotry. Why not just call the girl a raghead and have done with it?
How are you going to teach kids about the Protestant Reformation? The Crusades? Ancient Greece? The Balkin Crisis? The Troubles in Ireland? What’s going on in the Middle East right now? The Inquisition? The Scopes Monkey Trial? Certain books, music, art – all of that has religious influences.
When I was in school, we were basically told hey, this is what this religion teaches, and these are the customs and rituals they observe, etc. Nothing about, “If you don’t believe this or that, you’re going to hell” or whatever. Dude, I went to CATHOLIC school, and I learned all about evolution and shit. (Or at least the bare bones, since this was elementary school, and we didn’t get into the nitty-gritty complicated stuff) I went to a Catholic college and was a history major. We didn’t get pushed, “Catholicism/Christianity is the only TRUE religion”. Far from it.
I went to high school in the early-mid nineties. This was during the whole crisis in Bosnia. Religious and ethnicity were a huge part of what was going on.
You don’t have to believe it. Nobody’s saying that. But you should KNOW about it.
But hey, if you prefer to remain ignorant of other cultures, because you assume they believe in woo, and they’re just oppressive (hint: not all of them are), then hey, your choice. But remember, "those who don’t learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.
(Of course, I didn’t live in the Bible Belt, so maybe I’m not qualified to talk.)
I think we’re writing past one another. I completely reject those who are messing with the kids, for one thing. For another, it’s not bigotry to find and point out tangible, genuine fault with someone’s choices/beliefs/delusions. There’s no need for slurs, either, as we can do better than that, or at least come up with more clever insults.
Also, I thought I had made it clear that learning about all of that stuff you mention is very important. I also realize that this case is not one where a school is necessarily pushing any of it on their students. What is happening, and what I object to, is that holding a multicultural show-and-tell without the opportunity for challenges (from anyone affiliated with the school, at least) is tantamount to endorsement; and how could such a dialogue be held without things getting really ugly? I can imagine being precocious enough to ask a tough (but valid!) question of one of my classmates, and I can imagine where it would go from there.
Don’t French schools teach about all of those topics, while keeping visible religiosity out? Don’t Turkish schools at least attempt this in theory (though secularism there is in trouble, much to the consternation of a Turkish-American volunteer at my job)?
I’ve flashed back to 12th-grade AP Government, when I was (mildly) chastised for referring to roving Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons as “a joke” (which they are, as something of a punchline) but another student mentioned the controversy around Scientology, while referring to it as a made-up scam of a religion, and was not chastised… and I never thought about the differing outcomes of my comment and his until now.
Religion should not get a free pass.
And do the students from atheist families get to talk about how stupid their family thinks the believers are?
I’m pretty well informed.
I don’t think it’s the states job to determine if one religion is too crazy to allow and one isn’t. Requiring children to be blind to religious beliefs that exist isn’t a particularly good idea. I’d rather they learn about them in a somewhat controlled environment. I like they system the OP’s school offers. No one is required to participate. If students want to tell others about their culture and beliefs they are offered a format in which they can do so. If students want to learn about a particular religion or culture that is present in their community they have that option.
It seems like a pretty good system to me, it’s a shame stupid bigots want to ruin it.
… or even just how misinformed or delusional they think the believers are. (Richard Dawkins points out that Bishops/Archbishops and educated theologians are usually pretty smart, but they’ve swallowed an empty promise.) How could this be done fairly?
Is it genuinely optional? Is there no de facto marginalization of those who want nothing to do with it? What about those students (or perhaps faculty, or parents) who wish to challenge someone’s religion? Guarantees of “no captive audience” don’t often work out well for non-Christians in the US.
So when religion comes up in a subject, you want teachers to tell the students it’s make-believe then?
The point of this isn’t to “challenge” anyone’s beliefs. It’s to learn about them. Last time I checked, atheism is considered to be lack of a belief system. As the saying goes, “atheism is a religion like bald is a hair color”. Correct?
They’re not there to proselytize. Just to explain a belief system. That’s it. Save it for a debate club.
Unless someone can provide evidence to the contrary, yes it’s optional.
Students, faculty or parents who want to challenge someone’s beliefs should probably find a different format. I think it would be inappropriate to do so given the description of the activity. The presenting students showed up to talk not debate. Just as it would be inappropriate to try to explain to a student bringing a Barbie Doll to show and tell that thier toy is a symbol of cultural oppression against women.
Growing up in and living in the Bible Belt as a nonbeliever is a whole different plate of potatoes to being a nonbeliever in a more rational area of the country.
Just a thought -
But have the detractors here stopped to think for a moment -
Here you have a young lady, attending a purely secular school, with boys, many other religions, fact based rigourous education and who knows what else.
She is willing to stand in front of a large crowd (an achievement in itself) and share what the Hijab means to her -
She is rather obviously a “moderate” -
And people want to shut her down and close her out?
What’s that going to do to her beliefs - and to those of her parents? Are they going to become more moderate after this? Or are they going to move further into their religion and become more fundamental?
As mentioned earlier - round here the wearing of a headscarf is NOT compulsory - in fact very far from it as the Hijab is expressly forbidden in all govt education institutions (all the way up to and including university) - yet some choose to wear it.
I have a good friend, our daughters attend school together, last year she chose to start wearing the Hijab again, she supports her hubby as a SAHD, she lectures at poly, she is a project director for a very well respected institution.
I cannot and will believe that she has been “forced” into wearing this item of clothing, it is a choice. A choice she has taken for her own reasons (which I am not going to question her on lest my own feelings on religion show through).
We commonly see hijab clad young ladies in tight jeans and highheels in our shopping distracts - as well as the full burqa around here.
As much as I hate the idea of people being told how to dress - to assume that the Hijab is “opressive” and “must not be talked about” is a huge leap and excludes a massive middle.
Why should the teacher allow someone to “challenge the girl’s belief system” in that class? She was not preaching, she was not witnessing, and she certainly wasn’t telling everyone in the room that their religion or lack thereof condemned them. She was explaining facts, facts that describe a culture.
Think back to your school days when Greek and Roman mythology was explained to you. Did your teacher witness that Christianity is the correct thing to believe or that faith in Apollo or Zeus or one of the other deities believed in those cultures was the way to eternal happiness? Of course not. He or she explained to you how that mythology was part of the culture under discussion.
Having someone who is (a) part of the culture under study in whatever the class happens to be, and (b) willing to relate facts about said culture is an asset for the students. Just because far too many Americans have a knee-jerk reaction whenever they hear the word Muslim or Islam or panic when they see someone a bit more swarthy than plain vanilla does not mean that the person doing the explaining is on an evil mission of subverting the nation’s poor pitiful innocent Christian youth.
I now return you to your scheduled evening of ignorance, hatred, and stupidity.
They should certainly be teaching that all religion is make believe, yes, as their job is to educate, not to lie. Whether that needs to be mentioned every single time religion comes up in a historical or sociological context is another matter, as long as the teaching is clear and consistent that religion is a harmful lie.
The question then becomes, and one I sincerely ask as an agnostic,
Which part of religion is “make believe”?
Which parts qualify as being “true” - which historical events, motivated and reported through the eyes of religion get to be referred to as true, and which remain in the realms of myth?
It’s not necessary to advocate a belief to teach it, it’s not necessary for the teacher to say “this is not true” before teaching about what people did believe and why.
It’s supposed to be “cultural awareness day.” Are you saying atheists have no culture and thus nothing to share, so they don’t get a turn?
An atheist kid in the US generally has the experience of being an outsider to the predominant culture. They are surrounded by the trappings of one religion or another at every turn, and expected to kowtow accordingly. Here is yet another chance to marginalize such people and shove them off to the side to “respectfully” observe with their mouths shut.
Meanwhile, some Mormon kid is his magical underwear is giddy with glee at getting a captive audience to proselytize before without having to knock on a single door.
How would you describe the practices of Atheist culture?
Just as I would not expect the Muslim child to cover the cultural practices of Muslims all over the world, which she would not have firsthand knowledge of, I’d assume the atheist student would talk about his or her own experiences, whatever they have been.
Considering that atheists have it worse than even Muslims in the US, I think allowing atheist kids a minute or two to explain that they don’t worship Satan and weren’t hatched from an egg would be pretty okay.
-RNATB, atheist and secular Hindu.
I agree with the conclusion but not the premise. I think by virtually any measure–hate crimes, employment discrimination, slander on Fox News, law enforcement misconduct–Muslims are treated worse.
I’m aware of polling that says that people trust atheists less and dislike them more than Muslims. So maybe the disparity in mistreatment is entirely up to the fact that atheists have little reason to advertise their beliefs and no official garb or hairstyle. But if so that’s a huge privilege to have, and one that evidently keeps atheists pretty safe.
Why assume? Tell us about your own actual Atheist cultural practices, your stories, rituals, holidays. Do you have special foods or dress?