I'm afraid I have a drinking problem (long)

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
61

Lefty

Plenty of room for subtlety in the case of individuals, but the substance is addictive, and continual use is addiction. Not life ending in many cases, not even socially debilitating in many cases. But addiction is a fact. Chemical changes in the human metabolism do take place. Denying that is simply ignoring the truth. You decide for yourself if you care to eliminate the substance, based on your life, and your perceptions. Alcohol will change both of them, and your judgement, as well. The fact that it happens the very first time you consume alcohol doesn’t change because you feel it is emotionally difficult to respond to.

I don’t think everyone should join AA. I never did. I had no trouble at all eliminating the social consequences of alcohol from my life, and I still have two bottles of liquor in my kitchen. It was not a serious problem for me. (Unlike a completely separate addiction which was, for me very difficult to control.) But, the facts are still the same. If you consume alcohol for social, or emotional reasons, or a desire to feel the effects of the drug, that behavior is addictive behavior. The loudness of the quack does not determine whether it is a duck.

I have no axe to grind on the subject of social drinking. I think it is a very strong indicator of a society’s inherent dependence on substance abuse to maintain docility in the masses, but hey, societies tend to do whatever works in that regard. I simply refuse to ignore the fact that addiction is addiction, however beneficial the addict perceives it to be. Addiction is not an indicator of human worth, either. It’s a condition of metabolic adaptation, and has profound emotional effects. That condition exists, however slightly, in every case where a human ingests alcohol in any significant amount. Most of the time, it takes many events to make the metabolic adaptation that ruins lives. But the change starts with one drink, and your judgement of your addictive state is an unreliable measure. Unfortunately it is the only measure that will effect the necessary condition of change, the decision to make a change.

In a later post someone said they drink alcoholic beverages even though they don’t like them. Point made, right there. You only drink lemonade if you like lemonade. Lemonade doesn’t get you drunk. So, you drink alcohol to get drunk. Only a little bit drunk, because you are a decent and worthy person, and would never sink to the level of street bums sucking from a paper covered bottle of hooch. But that is the societal evaluation coming from those who condemn one addict, and excuse another. I don’t think either of them is a bad person, just a person addicted to a drug. How badly addicted is a place to examine subtlety, but drinking something you don’t like because you want to get high is addiction. Drinking because you want to have fun is addiction. Drinking because you want to not hurt, or feel is addiction. Drinking because you like the taste is not addiction, although I would like to point out that it wouldn’t prevent addiction. (Although you have to drink a lot of Lemonade to get really messed up on the stuff.)

Tris

62

I don’t think that’s what anyone here is saying. In fact, if anything, everyone here seems to be being pretty supportive. What Im reading here is a lot of people saying that you can fix a drinking problem. They’re also saying that you’ll have to do some hard things to kick whatever addiction you may have–you’ll have to be brutally honest with yourself and you’ll have to change some of your fundamental thinking patterns. People here are offering you their stories and accounts of how they managed to become sober and stay that way in the hopes that their stories would give you food for thought and motivation for change if change is necessary.

You said you might have a problem with alcohol, and you asked everyone here to tell you if they thought you showed signs of an addiction. People here are giving you their honest feedback and support. No-one’s labelling you and no-one’s judging you.

Sounds like a good idea to me. I mean, if you have any doubts, why not do it? All you have to lose is an hour or so of your time.

63

Given what you’ve said already, I couldn’t make that statement about you.

Note that I’m not saying it’s impossible for you to go back to drinking the way you used to. But IMHO (and that’s all it is, my opinion albeit fairly educated and experienced, based only on what you’ve written) the odds of you doing so successfully in the long run (and I’m thinking upwards of 5-10 years as the long run) are not in your favor.

And this isn’t a diagnosis nor is it a suggested treatment plan. All I’m saying is that people who say things like you said in this thread tend to not be able to do what you hope to do.

64

Continual use is not addiction. I brush my teeth every night: I am not addicted to toothpaste. Your definitions may work for you, but they’re not related to mainstream science–or, more importantly, to psychological health.

Who’s denying it? I’m specifically saying that people drink with the intent of having those changes take place.

I’m sure you’ve seen kids play games where they spin around until they’re so dizzy that they fall down, or where they hang upside down from the monkeybars until they go all red and start feeling funky. Siberians used to drink one another’s urine in order to gain the mind-altering effects of the amanitin toxins that the peer’s urine contained from previous ingestion of fly agaric mushrooms (they stopped this practice pretty much as soon as alcohol became available to them). Marathon runners talk about the rush they get. Fasting is popular because of the “clarity of mind” that results. Humans have got a deep-seated desire to get a buzz on, however they can.

Yet spinning around isn’t an addiction for most people. Fly agarics aren’t an addiction for most people. Fasting and marathoning aren’t addictions for most folks.

No, those aren’t facts. Those are bald assertions that, again, have nothing to do with mainstream science, mainstream usage of the word “addictive,” or psychological health. Ducks don’t enter into it.

Massive contradiction: from here, I see a huge axe being ground.

I don’t think either of them is bad either, but only one of them is an addict, by any reasonable definition of the term.

People lift weights to the point where it becomes painful, not because they enjoy the pain, but because they enjoy the endorphins. Are weightlifters addicts?

Priceguy, lemme know if you’d prefer this to go to another thread; if it’s a hijack, I’ll gladly start a GD on the topic.

Daniel

65

It’s not that it’s a hijack or that I mind the discussion, it’s that I think we’re leaving MPSIMS territory. Please start that GD thread, I’ll probably be there myself.

66

Okay, Priceguy, here we go! I’d love to get other folks’ input over here, too; this would be a better place to hash out a definition of these terms, I think.

(FWIW, although I think this thread has had some serious hyperbole in it, it’s also had some pretty keen perception: Priceguy, I’d worry pretty hard about any of my friends who were drinking in the way you’re describing. I’m not experienced enough in the field to offer any advice beyond that observation.)

Daniel

67

Um, as someone who has said those exact same words - and I sh*t you not - those exact same words, I think you need to do some hard thinking on this.

“I don’t think I need to stop drinking entirely.” I have said that for years. And years. And years. Even after my DUIs. Plural. I now know. I. Just. Can’t. Drink. Even these thoughts you are having are a subtle indication to yourself that you know something is wrong. Think about it…would you have these thoughts if you didn’t think there was something even the tiniest bit off? Vodka at ten in the morning?

I am not pointing fingers at you, and (no offense to the AA folks) sometimes AA can be a little harsher than is helpful, but it works for a lot of folks. There are other alternatives, though. Other groups to help you examine your habits, your desires regarding drink, and your triggers.

Being proud of yourself for tunring down a drink is a warning sign, my friend. Most people who can drink normally wouldn’t think about that AT ALL. Picking days not to drink is a warning sign, my friend. People who can drink normally do not have to do that. Ever. In any situation. At all.

Don’t be ashamed that you’re like millions of the rest of us who just can’t. Can’t drink normally. Because for us, drinking isn’t normal. It’s nothing to be ashamed of. Honest.

I hope you find what you’re looking for. Which should not be an excuse that says “go ahead and drink.” Cause you won’t find it.

Respectfully,

Inky

Who still falls down, but works every day at getting back up.

68

I’m not proud of myself for turning down a drink. I merely pointed out that I did it.

I’m not ashamed either.

69

Honestly, please don’t see this as bashing. I can’t tell you if you have a problem. Only you can. Or a qualified professional. I am neither.

May I just point out that a person who can drink normally wouldn’t remember they had turned down a drink, cause it wouldn’t make a dent in their thought patterns? It wouldn’t register as a blip on the radar.

I know you’re feeling piled on by this thread. I commiserate, I really really do. No one wants you to feel that way. (This is my reading of the responses here. Your interpretation may be different.) But you specifically posted with a request for others responses. They’re given. Mightn’t it be a tad naive to think you would get responses that would say “You’re different!! You can beat all the odds that others can’t!” I wish I could give you assurances like that. You very well might be that one in a million who can beat the odds. If you are, I will admire that in you.

However. My name is Inky, and I have a problem with drinking. I never drank every day. I never drank at home. I could take just one drink. But the times when I had more than one, it went to far. And it caused me and others harm. And property damage. (I ran into a wall and wrecked my car.) I like to drink. I enjoy a nice beer on warm days. I like a glass of wine when I play petanque. I like Sake when I go out for sushi. I have, upon occasion, been able to have a session of drinking that wasn’t disastrous. I’ve always gone to work. I always paid my bills. My house was never overrun with liquor bottles.

But I had a problem with drinking. I still have it. I will have it forever. I learned the hard way, over and over and over and over, that I have a problem and my efforts to slow down, pick a day, turn down drinks, and everything else don’t erase the fact that when I do drink, it is a problem.

I really hope you find out about yourself. It’s a journey, as everything in life is. If you don’t have a problem, then it’s a lesson in self-discovery at best. At worse, it’s a lesson in self-discovery.

My most heartfelt wishes,

Inky

70

I’m terribly sorry, but now I’m fucking annoyed.

I. Know. This. Already.
I. Have. A. Problem.
I. Am. Aware. Of. This.
I. Am. Getting. Tired. Of. Typing. It. Though.

71

My sincere apologies.

I’ll go away now.

Respectfully,

Inky

72

Priceguy, I’d be more than a little annoyed if you were annoyed with me. I’ve tried to be kind, to provide a fair and balanced view on alcohol use and your situation, and to not label you.

73

I’m not annoyed with you. If my last reply to you gave that impression, I apologize. I was just trying to explain why I reply and rebut here.

I do, however, get annoyed when people (again, not you) point out things that have been pointed out before, or try to convince me of something that I’ve already admitted to be true, and so forth. That is not something that has to do with this thread or with alcohol. It always annoys me, no matter what the context.

74

Well, not unless they want to upset their bartender.

Daniel

75

This thread has been fascinating. It seems like there’s a profound difference between the perspectives of people who have a healthy relationship with alcohol and people who don’t. And for those of us who don’t, the idea that it can be any different can be very strange.

I consider myself a might-have-been alcoholic. Lots of genetic disposition. Basically, I had a first real drink that almost exactly parallels scott evil’s experience, about the same age and everything, only it was shots of vodka. In the morning before school, for a couple of days. Except instead of listening to that little voice inside which said “more more more” even though I was just a kid, I looked at my family and realized that I had been given too much to risk it all for… what? Maybe it wasn’t fair that the way my body and mind are, I can never have the experiences my friends have with alcohol without risking everything, but that’s just how it is for me. Drinking isn’t a right, an entitlement to all humans, despite the huge emphasis so many people put on it. It’s a physical thing. Some people are allergic to cats. I think if you offered me the choice between the inborn whateveritis I have that makes me unable to relate to alcohol without risking my existence, and having a bad allergy to cats to the point that I couldn’t have one of my own, like one of my friends, I’d choose being able to have a cat. Some people have weak knees and will never be able to downhill ski. Some people have diabetes and can’t indulge in cupcakes the way I did the other day, just because I felt like having some cupcakes. It may not seem fair, but that’s just how their bodies are made. It would be just as stupid for them to endanger themselves by trying to do it anyway out of some sense of karmic entitlement, as it would be for me to drink. That’s the way I think of it, anyway. You play the hand you’re dealt.

For a while, I was convinced I shouldn’t date anyone who drank, either. I’ve seen that even people who have a tendency towards alcoholism, but escape the sentence, can fall right back into it by becoming yoked to an alcoholic. Seeking the dependancy they experienced with an ill parent, or something like that. I didn’t want that to happen to me, either. Then I fell in love with my best friend, who drinks. It freaked me out at first. I didn’t know if I’d ever feel comfortable with it, or if I’d always be convinced he was one step away from becoming an alcoholic. I had to see how he actually is with alcohol, to realize how profoundly different it is for someone who has a normal ability to cope with drinking. It’s like he’s in a whole other world.

When he realizes he mixed his drink a bit too strong, he mentions that he should make sure to sip it slowly, or maybe just go water it down right away.

When I tease him about a set of pictures from the party, where in every pic he had a bottle of beer in his hand, though they were taken over the course of a few hours, he points out that it was the same one or two bottles of beer. Thinking back on it, he’s right.

When I jokingly mentioned that I’d always wanted a dry wedding, not even champagne for the toast, but that I understood and was fine with the fact that he’d surely want alcohol at the wedding if we got married… he said no. A dry wedding is fine. It just didn’t matter to him.

We had a fight about his drinking a few months ago. He got especially drunk with his roomates, and came online to talk to me in the midst of it. I felt that if he was drinking so much that it would seriously impair his judgement and possibly risk his life or health (and believe me, talking to me while in that state, with my hangups about drinking, is definitely a risk to his life or health), then it was too much. We fought, I cried a little, and I reiterated my fears about winding up in another dependant relationship. Fine, he said, he’d do anything to keep me, and if that meant giving up alcohol then he’d never drink again. It just didn’t matter. My mother was given that choice when I was 14, with a much different result.

It’s just different, the way he thinks, the way he behaves, the way he reacts to alcohol. And I realize now that it’s normal, but it’s not the way I thought of drinking because that’s not how I was exposed to it growing up. I don’t have a problem with his drinking, now, because it isn’t a struggle for him. It doesn’t have to be, for some people. Just for me, and that’s okay.

76

Yes, but why would one do so? I don’t mean to be flip, but ordering a drink and not finishing it–under ordinary circumstances, mind you–just seems silly. Seriously. I’ve only ever seen that done in movies, where it’s a very common thing to have the characters order drinks, and then leave the bar after only a couple of sips, in order to advance the plot.

Now on the other hand, if you’re in a bar, and you get a call on your cell because there’s something obviously more important in your life that you need to go and deal with, I agree that a “normal drinker” would leave the drink unfinished. But if it comes to that, many alcoholics would probably behave the same way, in the same set of circumstances.

I

77

The first example to come to mind: the other day I was over at a friend’s house. He’d gotten a two-liter bottle of my favorite soda, diet Dr Pepper, and while we were hanging out I was drinking soda from a glass with ice. My car was in the shop, so he had to give me a ride home. When he was ready to leave, I was halfway through a glass of soda, so I just said “okay,” went to the kitchen, dumped the soda and ice down the drain, and left the glass in the sink.

If it had been beer, when I was drinking, I’d have either stalled our departure long enough for me to finish my beer, or I’d’ve chugged it, or I’d’ve found a travel mug to put it in … or something, but I wouldn’t have just docilely dumped it down the sink.

Because alcoholics don’t just walk away from a half-finished beer.

78

Even one with a cupple of cigarette butts in it.
IME, I am ashamed to admit. But that was a long time ago, I am much better now.

79

Nor do I, but I don’t walk away from a half-finished glass of orange juice either. It’s just my upbringing. It wouldn’t occur to me to do so; I’d just chug it.

80

Priceguy, I think you should take a serious look at approaches to your problem besides AA. I don’t know whether or not you can return to your previous patterns, but I do know a lot of people who’ve had brief troubles with alcohol and then given it up, returned to social drinking, and never labeled themselves alcoholics. And managed just fine afterwards. There are other methodologies besides AA, and it sounds to me like you’d be a lot more inclined to pursue them.

Rational Recovery is one organization I’ve heard of, and while they obviously have an axe to grind with AA, I think a lot of people who aren’t hard-core drinkers would probably do better with that approach. It seems to me that the stark choice between complete sobriety and giving in to the disease is probably something that delays a lot of people’s ability to respond when they have a drinking problem - for the sort of person who loves to drink but hasn’t destroyed their life, the statement that they have to quit entirely just pushes them to wait until their life has fallen apart before they finally quit. I’ve seen a lot of people who’ve seemed to nip the problem in the bud, before it became necessary to choose between drunkenness and abstainance.

So look at non-AA approaches and conceptualizations beyond AA’s alcoholic/recovering alcoholic/dry drunk delineation. I have seen other people in your position, and I believe you can quit. Do it now.