I'm jealous of my Jewish friends.

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

I realized something. Something has me mildly pissed and very jealous - doesn’t warrent a Pit thread, by no means, but I don’t think it’s mundane.

A whole lot of my friends are Jewish - some are really observant, some are only mildly so, all are involved in the Jewish community. Youth groups and the like. My sister is, partly because she’s one of very few Jews at the Air Force Academy, so…actually, I don’t know her logic. For anything much, but she’s embraced her judaism. Been to Israel twice. Many of my friends have, despite the whole terrorist problem, been to Israel.

I’ve been raised Jewish. Bat Mitzvah’d and Confirmed, both against my will. Forced to sit through 10 years of religious education (after school). Missed one night a week of TKD (my true passion) for 2 years because of it. Been pissed off at my rabbi’s racist, bigoted, homophobic rantings that I called him an ass to his face. Nearly gotten kicked out of my parent’s lives over it (it started because of a discussion over organ donation, of all things.) The net result of all of this has been I don’t like Judaism. I don’t believe in it as a religion (I’m agnostic, I think the Torah [and bible, FWIW] are crap, think most all organized religions are just stupid). I don’t believe it’s something you can’t ‘stop’ being, despite my father’s insistance. I do believe it gives a strong sense of community, and that’s what I’m jealous of.

My friends all have their youth groups. My sister has her group of Jewish cadets. My parents have their friends from synagogue. A guarenteed community. I, on the other hand, do not - I have no group which I’m assured will have drastically similar morals and beliefs as me, no one to turn to for moral support when my beliefs get bashed (which happens often.) And I’m just flat-out jealous of that. I want the sense of belonging. Why don’t I have that? Why can’t I just accept judaic teachings and take the easy way? Many of my groups I need to justify to outsiders: “I’m in my school’s GSA because…” “I’m a vegetarian because…” “I’m a martial artist because…” No one would ever ask someone “Why are you Jewish?” It’s something that’s just accepted. And I want that belonging.

Sorry if this doesn’t make much sense - I’m very tired and I’m feeling really depressed right now. Oh, and it’s now 16 minutes after midnight - I’m 17 now. Happy freakin’ birthday to me. :frowning:

2

You think for yourself instead of just accepting what people tell you. That’s something I wish I saw more of in the world. Don’t lament that, celebrate it. It’s a wonderful thing.

Oh, some people would. :stuck_out_tongue:

Why do you feel bad about this? It sounds more like curiosity than anything else. What’s wrong with defending your choices? Too much effort?

Being an atheist doesn’t mean you can’t have a community. Look around and you can probably find lots of humanist and similar groups that can help you out in that regard.

3

Is there another synagouge, another rabbi you can go talk to?

Like any other humans, there are good rabbis and bad rabbis. It sounds like you could use a different perspective.

Religion is never an easy thing, and it sounds like you’ve had a bad time with it.

In any case, there are several Jewish-raised agnostics who attend various Hillel functions at my university. They don’t fit in any more or less than anyone else. Wanting that sense of community is more than enough reason to participate in one these groups, or at least it is where I am.

Out of curiousity, were you raised Orthodox, Reform, or Conservative?

4

Happy Birthday.

I consider myself to be an atheist and a Jew. This is a concept that many have a very difficult time grasping for some reason. My religion is atheist, my heritage and my culture are Jewish. I have to agree with you that many in the Orthodox community are racist and I also find many of their rules to be silly. To each their own.

Look, you’re Jewish and there’s nothing you can do about it. You can take as much or as little from it as you choose. I thought that my childhood rabbi (Reform) was an ass too. About ten years ago, when I was in my late 20’s, I decided to give Judaism another try. I joined the temple in my community and liked the Rabbi there much better. He wasn’t an ass at all. I wish I could say that that brought me back into the fold but it didn’t. Organized religion still makes me feel oogy but every once in a while something happens that brings me back to my roots.

I am rambling here but my main point is that you may find meaning in your Jewishness and you travel through life. Then again, you may not. Either way, it’s ok. Your feelings are legitimate and I share many of them sometimes.

Haj

5

First of all, happy birthday! You survived the worst year of teenager-dom, if you ask me - you’ve hit seventeen and you’re home free now:) (I wasn’t a happy teenager, obviously).

Your post touched a note with me. For years, I’ve struggled with my religious beliefs. I was raised Christian and come from a very Christian family - but they are all very open-minded and very loving. So I never felt forced into religion. But I still had issues with organized religion and Christianity. I always believed in God and a higher power, but I had issues with Jesus dying on the cross and I had issues with a religion that was supposed to teach love teaching hate.

So I left for about four years. I still believed in God in my own way, but I didn’t go to church. I spent a lot of time reading and doing a lot of research on things. And I came to the conclusion that while I don’t agree with a lot of what some denominations of Christianity promote, I did share a large portion of my belief system with the Episcopal Church. And I seriously missed the fellowship of going to church. So I started going again and was glad I did. I’ve realized that my beliefs don’t have to be exact. There’s room for interpretation on a lot of things and for me, I get what I need from going to church - which I like.

Granted, I haven’t gone since I moved back to VA except a couple of times - I haven’t found a church I like as much as my NYC church. But I’m still looking.

I guess my point is that you’re the only one who needs to validate your beliefs. You can discuss them with others, but in the end, you are the one who knows what you believe. If you don’t believe in the Torah, then you probably wouldn’t get much out of these groups - even if you want that community. Have you looked around to see if there are other groups you can join that might fill that void? Not religious groups, but something that will give you that same sense of community.

I understand questioning your beliefs, believe me. Feel free to email me if you want to chat - I’ll probably be up another couple of hours - that’s what I get for napping at 6 PM.

Ava

6

Unless you do something about it. :wink:

7

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

on to religion. I was raised christian, and when I was about your age, I asked my youth pastor what the difference was between the catholic saints (I was/am not catholic) and the minor dieties of say the roman religion. his response to me was to tell me that it just was different. bad answer for me to hear. that was it for me. never really went back, and other than while I was in the military, and going through my 3 basic trainings (including one at the Air Force Academy) have never been too religious (even then I think it was mainly to get out and relax for a bit while in the church).

since that time I have called myself pagan, because I do believe in a higher power, jsut not sure what form it takes, but I really am not a pagan as most people think of pagans. I have come up with my own core of beliefs, and an understanding of the world for me. most people I meet seem to not understand that what I believe in works for me, but may not work for them. I have formed this belief base on reading many books about many different faiths. it has also been way too many years since I left the church, so it may take time for you to find what you are searching for in terms of faith or beliefs. but don’t let anyone pressure you into believing one way or another. faith, beliefs, and spirituality need to be individual choices, at least IMHO.

may you find what you seek, but realize that it may take you a long time to find the faith you will call your own.:smiley:

8

First of all, Happy Birthday, NinjaChick! Second of all, it’s not at all unusual for you to be experiencing the feelings you’re having at this age. Please forgive me for sharing a personal story and forgive the length in advance.

When I was 16 and in my confirmation year at religious school, our rabbi took our class on a weekend retreat. On Saturday night we got together in a big hall where all the tables and chairs had been removed and we sat around on the floor. We counted off into 7 different groups and then each group was assigned a “belief system” to which we would have to adhere throughout the evening’s exercises. One group was told they were to believe in an omnipotent, omnipresent G-d. One group believed in an “individual” god where internal conscience was the guiding force as opposed to an external “being”. One group was told they had doubts as to the existence of any kind of god at all, and so on.

Over the next several hours we had to do things such as draw a picture of how our god would appear if he/she/it could be seen, act out a play (I can’t remember the subject matter anymore), and put the Jewish holidays in order of importance as to how our god would see them, etc.

At the end of the evening the rabbi asked us what we thought we’d just spent the last few hours doing. Every single person thought we were doing a study of comparative religions. WRONG! We were studying Judaism and only Judaism. Every single one of those beliefs we were the beliefs in the hearts and minds of Jews in that very room and all over the world.

The moral of our exercise was that Judaism does not have a “creed”. We don’t have to make any kind of statement of religious belief in order to be a Jew – not even to be a good Jew! (Though I freely admit that many Orthodox Jews see things differently, but that’s the beauty of Judaism!)

I am an agnostic Jew. The logical side of my brain finds the concept of a diety responsible for every itty bitty thing in the entire universe to be absurdly ridiculous. I think people dreamed up the concept of G-d out of ignorance and fear long before there was mass communication or scientific study. The concept of G-d or gods is so varied among peoples of the world and has changed so much over the centuries that I find it silly to think any one religion is any more right about something absolutely none of us knows anything about as fact than any other.

On the other hand, in my heart, I feel a very deep and abiding respect and admiration for those who came before me who, quite literally, fought to the death (or were willing to) for the right for themselves and their descendents to be free to practice the religion they felt in their hearts was right. I don’t celebrate the Jewish holidays because I necessarily agree with what they say about G-d. I celebrate Hannukah, Passover, Yom Kippur, etc. (even Purim!) with sincere gratitude towards my ancestors, that I am free to do exactly that. And I mourn the fate of fellow Jews who are, even today, forced to pray in secrecy for fear of persecution. I feel an incredible debt and, therefore, a responsibility to honor my ancestors by acknowledging their generous sacrifices by lighting the menorah, drinking wine, giving tzedaka, saying kadish, lighting Yahrzeit candles, etc.

And just because you don’t believe in G-d in the traditional sense, doesn’t mean you wouldn’t have anything in common with kids in Jewish youth groups such as BBYO. Heck, if you have nothing else in common, you all have Jewish parents – oy vey! :wink: I had some of the best times of my life in BBYO and it had nothing to do with religiousness. Formal dances, hay rides, “progressive” dinners, weekend conventions, tons and tons and tons of dates – what a blast!

This may not be the right path for you at all and Judaism might never feel “right” to you in your heart. But I at least wanted to let you know that agnosticism and Judaism are not necessarily in conflict. I tell you this because I can see that you’re hurting because of this very misunderstanding and I want you to know that you don’t have to feel that way!

Best of luck and, again, wishing you a very Happy Birthday!

[sub]P.S. hajario, your thread had tears rolling down my face I was so touched. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing that story.[/sub]

9

Might I point out that this is a community? And, that you belong to it, and are welcomed by it? I consider you a “neighbor”, if not, yet, a friend. :slight_smile:

Happy Birthday, NinjaChick! :smiley:

10

Offered in full awarness that this is for what it’s worth, and that your eyes may well glaze over:

As an atheist, I’ve developed a simple method of dealing with the faithful: “I don’t beleive, but I truly believe that you believe.” So discourd between us is not my problem.

As far as one’s sense of belonging, even the faithfull have to deal with such issues. How one fits in is part of the process of self-discovery. And even older people like me still have to perform adjustments. It’s a lonely undertaking no matter what.

That said, if you ever betray you own conscience to “fit in,” I can say from experience that you’ll only feel more dimished than before. Its better that you see your position as antethesis to other’s thesis, and accept whatever synthesis occurs.

11

Thanks for the replies. Now that I’m not rediculously exhausted (don’t think and be awake at the same time, kiddies. Not safe.) I think I can address a few points.

I think that being forced against my will to participate in the religious part of Judaism (and little exposure to the cultural side until semi-recently) is really the root of my problem. I can’t look at, say, a Purim carinval, or a Hanukah party, without feeling that it’s just a rediculously stupid waste of time (note: I mean absolutely no offense to anyone by saying this, it’s simply my opinion.) If I do participate, from the sidelines (example: visiting family for the 1st night of Hanukah, or a seder), I can’t help but get a sour taste in my mouth. I associate it with something I’m being forced to do. Additionally, I never got along with the other students in my religious school - I was the only one from my school, and by far in the lowest social class represented there. I didn’t want much to do with them, they didn’t want anything to do with me.

In terms of finding a different synagogue (btw - for whoever asked, I’m reform), it’s something I may look into once I leave home (11 months til I graduate HS!) - try and find that community then. As long as I’m living with my parents, though, it’s really not a possibility. It’s been such a point of friction over the years, I don’t know what it would do - in case you can’t tell, I don’t get along with my parents particularly well.

Additionally: it’s not just that I don’t believe in the Jewish concept of a god, it’s that I don’t really believe in organized religion. If I had to label myself as something (which I often do), it would be Buddhist. But I don’t believe in organized prayer, I don’t believe you need a certian number of people, certain attire, certain place, etc, to pray. I don’t believe prayer does anything, either, but I don’t want to get too much into that.

On that note, though - ** hajario**, that’s a beautiful story you linked to. I don’t know why, but it really is. Made me feel all fuzzy (teddy-bear fuzzy, not, like, moldy-cheese fuzzy).

And one final point for you all to dissect for me (or just tell me I’m nuts, either way): I know there are organizations that run trips to Israel for Jewish teens/college students. Any Jewish dopers out there have any experience with them?

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I do, but it was quite a few years ago. What would you like to know?

13

I suppose she’d like to know what your experience was and how you’d rate it. :wink:

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I have no first-hand experience, but everything I’ve heard about Birthright Israel has been 100% positive.

15

Marley23, that certainly could be true. However, it could also be that she wants to know if we felt safe or if we were afraid of bombs going off on busses and such (no, in spite of the fact that they did). She may want to know what places we visited and what we would recommend seeing. She may want to know what group we went with so she can see if there’s one in her area.

You see, NinjaChick is a young woman who is struggling between wanting to feel good about being Jewish (because she is, and she’s envious of the sense of commraderie and community her family and friends feel) and rejecting it outright because it’s been shoved down her throat all her life. I know the feeling – I had to sit through Sunday school until confirmation, too, and I hated every minute of it!

And that’s the point – NinjaChick doesn’t want to be talked at and told how Judaism makes everyone else feel. Notice how I tried that approach above, giving her an example of one of my experiences in confirmation class and how it might relate to the fears and confusion she’s feeling right now and she skipped right on by it with no comment. To her, at this moment in time, it’s all just noise.

Fair enough. And the last thing I want to do is be yet one more person making her feel as though what I feel or what I experienced should be how she feels and what she experiences. All that will serve to do is push her further away from Judaism and I would sincerely regret seeing that happen. Right now what NinjaChick clearly needs is someone to whom she can ask questions – the questions she’s pondering, who will give straightforward responses without a lot of emotion, expectations or guilt.

And recognizing that, I decided to let her guide the conversation in whatever direction she feels most comfortable. I hope I can be of some help to her.

16

Wow. Exactly. Sorry if it seems like I was ignoring your previous post - I didn’t mean to ignore it so much as I don’t know how to respond to things like that. I get a lot of stories like that, whenever I bring the topic up with anyone. My reaction has basically become “Great, but, uh, that was what happened to you, and I’m not you.” Thank you all for your replies, though. It is appreciated. I think you summed it up best in your second paragraph - I want that sense of belonging, but I’ve somehow convinced myself that everything about Judaism is something I don’t want. Leads to much teenage angst, and I’ve got more than enough of that.

More respone on the way, later, as I’m heading out right now.

17

I agree that NinjaChick doesn’t want to be told how to feel - I just figured the reason you ask a question like that is to find out what other people’s experience is. I’d want to know all the things you mention if I was planning such a trip.

Anyway, NinjaChick, feel free to come along and specify any time. :wink: