You’re right, you shouldn’t. But if you CAN afford it, should you be paying PMI or get part of your inheritance when you could really use it? No one is entitled to a house, and I didn’t argue that anyone was. However, I don’t think my parents were the first to say, “Buy what you can afford and we’ll give you the down payment. It’ll lower your payments and eliminate private mortgage insurance.”
If I gave the impression that I felt entitled to those things, I deserve the eye roll for poor diction. I meant “birthright” in the sense of an inherited or *unearned * privilege, as opposed to something I had to work for; not to suggest that kids have the “right” to expect those things will be provided.
I fail to see the difference. You felt that you deserved a car, a college education, and help with a house purchase just because you exist.
Then you recommend the OP reward his son for doing nothing with his life. Your problem isn’t that you used poor wording, your problem is that you’re incredibly tone deaf.
IMO, no teenager deserves to be handed a car. I think it should be one of the first large possessions a teenager finds a way to earn, though.
I hope to be able to buy MayGirl a car (she will be 17 this summer), but she is currently working her tail off in an attempt to enter college as a sophomore. Mr. May agrees that kids shouldn’t be given a car, but if she does well enough on her AP exams, he thinks that a used but dependable car (in lieu of college tuition and other expenses) is reasonable. We’ll see.
OP, if your son wants to be treated as an adult, go for it within reason. One piece of advice that was offered to me when my children were small that has been most useful was this: Don’t do anything for them that they can do for themselves.
OP, you can’t give your son a car for another reason - you said you wouldn’t give him a car unless his grades were all at least Cs. If you back down on that now, you’re not being consistent.
Getting a licence is gaining a skill, however, and it does require effort on his behalf. It would be bizarre to stand in his way there. Same with if he decides to use his savings to buy a car - then you could possibly step in and offer a little extra to get a slightly better (especially safer) car. And you should definitely insist on having a veto on the car of his choice because he’s so young and has so little experience on the roads and could be taken in by a private seller or professional salesman with more experience than he has.
If you do decide to go for the “more stick” route, it sounds like removing the internet would be the best way. And I mean taking the cable out of the router so that he can’t access it, or changing the password frequently. This does actually work with my daughter. I tried the backing-off approach for a year with her and it did not work at all because she needs guidance and externally-set rules. It doesn’t sound like your son is much like that, so backing off probably is for the best.
Let his teachers know, too. He’s sixteen, not six, so it shouldn’t come as a complete shock to them.
It very much sounds like the OP’s son’s main problem is with school. If he is otherwise a responsible young man, including with his part time job, then it would make sense for the OP to back off some and let the son either take responsibility or sink to some degree. If the boy cares about at least graduating, then that’s probably half the battle and he will likely half-ass it and get his teachers to bail him out until he can get out of that place.
As far as teachers bailing him out at the last minute, maybe the OP shouldn’t interfere with that. High school can be pretty arbitrary in terms of what the person is actually learning and how they do it. If the boy can pass the material even if it’s make-up stuff and not when he should have actually turned it in, he’s managing to get the stuff done, even if it’s not the “right” way.
As far as the car, I see no issue with changing what will get him the car as long as the OP is making other changes and backing off on school. Tell the boy he has to pay for 75% or some % of the car and that it has to at least be safe and whatever else. As long as it’s not about school, the boy will probably be ok with it, as it seems like the main problem he has is high school
I can only relate to my HS years as a reference. I was very intelligent, and had always had a good hand on all of my subjects. In HS, I sucked, but, once I was in college, I was great again.
At least one reason that I sucked was because they moved me from a clean, well-lit, math class out to a dimly lit auxillary classroom (an old, surplus Quonset hut) with a teacher whose voice could induce sleep in Robin Williams. Shit, I was so busy trying not to commit suicide, that I couldn’t listen to the teacher. How could I explain any of this to my parents? I wouldn’t have believed me, so, I couldn’t expect them to. Plus, other students were doing well in that environment; it only affected me that way.
Also, another thing that helped me do poorly then was the fact that I was left on my own in the afternoon/evenings. Do you hover over your son until he gets his homework done? Had somebody done this to me, I would have done my work, and succeeded much earlier, etc… It seems like your son has a poor work ethic, and if you hover (dumb word, I know)/control/structure his behavior, it may help. It doesn’t sound like you’ve done that, tho, maybe you have. If I am right, sit down with him and don’t leave or let him do anything until he finishes his homework.
None of the things that I did/didn’t do that hindered me in HS could be fixed by anything the teachers could discuss with my parents. Long range carrot and stick stuff doesn’t work, if the child is wanting to go over to his friend’s house/run around/etc… tonight.
Best wishes.
I am a Michigander too! I definitely don’t think anyone *deserves *a car.
keep digging, dude.
This is a great thread - thanks to the OP for raising such a good topic for discussion. It’s hard to add anything new at this point, but I do notice one omission - other than some of was MissTake has hinted at, nothing has been said about how the son’s friends may be influencing him for good or ill.
Before we moved into the teen years (my son turns 17 in a few weeks), we were often told that “you have to do all your instilling of values when your child is young. By the time your child is a teenager, his/her peers are going to be a much stronger influence than you are.”
Well, I don’t know that I buy that entirely. (Certainly not in the case of my own child, though he’s unusually immune to peer pressure and always has been.) However, it seems worth asking: what are the son’s friends like? Are they all studying hard and hoping to get into good universities? Are they slackers? Somewhere in between?
A parent can’t make their kid be friends with anyone in particular, but if Quicksilver’s son is hanging out with mostly unmotivated peers, I wonder if there is a way to nudge him toward friendships with kids who have established goals and are working toward them.
You really should read the report behind the article before you base your arguments on the findings. The report actually says (the report is actually a PDF linked on that page):
“Some college” is vastly different that your assertion of “college graduate”. In fact, a black male with an associates degree is 10% more likely to be employed than a whte, male HS dropout. The fact that there exists a gap is not in question, so there is really no need to exaggerate it.
I also infer from your post here ( and others) that you think the vast majority of the cause behind the gap is racial. The report finds that:
This is born out by the facts that, A) at the highest level of education the gap bewteen white and black males virtually disappears, and B) a substantial employment gap exists between black males and black females with the same level of education - much higher than the gap between white females vs white males. The difference is that black males as a group attain a lower level of education than any other race/gender combination. That stat in particular indicates that the issue is not just race related, but is more related to education level. Other factors, including place of residence vs jobs available (city/suburb/rural), lower marriage rates and higher incarceration rates.
I think pretty much everyone on this board would agree that racism still exists in the United States and white males do have an advantage, all else being equal. That advantage, however, is not completely attributable to racism.
Buying a car for someone who behaves irresponsibly is completely idiotic. A car is a dangerous thing that can ruin or end lives. Yes, it’s all very nice to think of the pleasure of being given a car as a sixteen-year-old, but that should be reserved for teens that have demonstrated exceptional maturity–not because they “deserve” it more, but to reduce the chance of anyone being killed or maimed.
Plus, the last thing a kid with a GPA in the toilet needs is the distraction of his own transportation. If he’s already in danger of not graduating, this will push that in the wrong direction.
:smack:
Ya know… that’s never occurred to me ONCE in the past four years. Thank you for pointing this out.
:rolleyes:
Oh, and nobody is bending over backwards to buy anybody a car. I have a 15 year car that I use for my commute to work. That’s the car I will ALLOW him USE once he gets his license.
Why are you directing your rolly-eyes at me? It’s Grotonian who seems to think you’re all wrong for being reluctant over handing over the car keys. I thought I was backing you up. But I guess I was wrong.
Seriously. I had to read that twice to make sure I didn’t miss anything.
I thought of something else. I didn’t have a car, straight out of school. I used my mother’s, and when I moved out, I took the bus.
I didn’t like taking the bus…but I’m super glad I did. Those years taking the bus taught me a lot. It taught me a lot more independence than I ever had. I learned to bring my groceries home, I learned to be responsible about my job and bus routes, I learned to deal with a lot, I walked a lot, and had a lot of time to think.
When I got a car I really felt like I had earned it, even if it wasn’t through money.
I’ve noticed this association between poor grades and perceived brilliance, too. Not just in this thread or on this board, but pretty much my entire K-12 experience featured middle-class white kids whose intelligence was never questioned despite being mediocre students. The consequences of their sloppy grades never seemed to get them tracked them into the slow classes or held back, like it did for all the poor and minority kids.
I’m not putting this out here to whine or vent, but I do think young white males may not feel as much internal pressure to achieve as other groups do, because they are less likely to come against assumptions of inferiority when they don’t achieve. Having to work hard to be seen as smart is actually seen as uncool; lots of people will brag about how they aced a test without even cracking a book open. I don’t know if this fits QuickSilver’s son, but it could be thinks he’ll be okay with bad grades because to date, he hasn’t experienced dire consequences from having bad grades and he doesn’t know anyone who has.
Quick Silver, I don’t know if you mentioned this, but it might not be a bad idea to have him to talk to a therapist or a coach. Not because he’s suffering from a pathology, but because he may need some help in identifying the root cause for his low achievement.
Seconded - some colleges even have specific programs which provide extra supervision and guidance. Some states have programs where with a specific GPA (2.75 or whatever) from community college, you’re basically guaranteed admission to a 4-year school to finish off the bachelor’s degree.
I do have to agree that you can’t make him care - he’s got to find his motivation to get off his duff and try something. Whether it’s doing better at school, or finding a job, or whatever.
Several folks have said that nobody cares how you did in high school when you’re looking for real jobs down the line. True enough - but if you do lousy at high school, you won’t get into a decent college, and employers WILL see that when they check up on the resume.
“Grades = car” = bad idea (even if it had worked); We’ve been through years of family therapy with the kids (both special needs) and rewards are not all that good as a motivator. Kid might do whatever to get the reward, and then why should he continue to behave as desired after that? Why should he ever do something just because it’s the right thing or would please the parents? So I’m kind of glad that worked.
I haven’t read the entire thread so I don’t know the status of “in his room all the time, watching Youtube / wasting time / not doing chores”. We have similar issues here (more on that later) but I’d draw the line and make hiding in his room unproductive / boring. If he has a TV in there, take it away. If he has a smartphone, cut off the data, cut off the texting, etc. If he has a computer, shut off the wireless access (you can set up access from the router to only specific times for specific machines). He can earn these back by doing his schoolwork / home work. It’s tough to follow through on this - takes a lot of parental discipline, frankly (and we’re not perfect about this ourselves).
But basically, if he wants to lay around and do nothing, make that nothing as boring as you possibly can. Getting back the phone etc. might seem like a reward - and I won’t deny that - but it’s more like earning back “normalcy” rather than earning a really major thing like a car.
Our situation: We have a 20 year old with a mild form of autism. He went away to college for 1 year and was very close to flunking out, so we said he couldn’t go back until he was getting a B average at community college. Still hasn’t done it. He spent months “applying for jobs” and go nowhere until we stepped in and walked through the online application, after popping in to the employer (a grocery store) to ask what we needed to do to get his application looked at. He does not come out of his room, ever, except for meals or rarely TV (he has a laptop, but no real TV, in his room).
He wants things (like to go back to his 4-year college) but doesn’t have the first idea when he’s getting into academic trouble. The boy got a C+ in Phys Ed. How do you get a C+ in PE, you might ask? Well, if there’s a final project, AND YOU FORGET TO TURN IT IN, that’s how. Similarly with a preparation-for-college we made him take at the community college. He forgot the first couple assignments!!!
Our daughter is nearly 18 and a senior in high school. We had to FORCE her to turn in a couple of applications. See, she wants to go to an art school (never mind there are very few jobs). A specific one, in fact. We’ve told her this is not our recommendation, and we have very very good reasons for it (among other things, 45K a year versus 20K a year). She will not listen to reason from us.
She’s spent her entire academic career finding ways to avoid getting homework done. She’s still pulling As and Bs because she is that bright and does well with in-class work and tests. There is no help we can offer that she will not find a way to sabotage. We’ve had to limit her computer time because that’s literally the only hold we have on her to get her to do her basic household chores (half-assed) and homework (half-assed).
She is planning on taking a year between high school and college for a number of very good reasons, including figuring out what she wants to do (and I think she’s hoping we’ll relent on the expensive art college option).
This is baffling to her father and me - as we were both pretty self-motivated in high school. Not that we didn’t pull the occasional all-nighter or whatever getting things done at the last minute, but it never would have OCCURRED to us to simply ignore a major project.
Because I don’t think you quite grok the situation. There is NO carrot or stick sweet or harsh enough to cause him to change his behaviour when it comes to taking school work a little more seriously.
Even the prospect of getting a car for his senior year is not compelling enough to get him off his ass. So saying as you recommend,“You want a car; I want good marks”, has not, is not, and will not yield results.
So my dilema is thus, dig my heels in along with him and butt heads like two stubborn goats, or, try something else. I’ve come to realize that I can’t out stubborn him and I can’t come up with a punishment or reward meaningful enough to him without becoming a dick in the process and then I’ll just end up being a dick. Yeah, I’m his dad and he’s got to do what I ask and he’s got to respect me. And you know what, he does. I get a glimpse of it in various ways in which he seeks out my approval and how he talks about me to others. Why risk the only real currency I have left over what’s not been fixable to date. I’m saving what I have in the bank for now. Perhaps it’ll be of value when he get’s older and will start paying us both back in dividends.
And from where I see it, Grotonian is right on the money with his insight.
I don’t think you grok MY point. I agree with you that your son isn’t going to to change his academic performance for a car. But that doesn’t mean you are obligated to get him one anyway.
Plenty of high-performing, well-behaved, hard-working, middle-class kids are required to buy their own automobiles. If you made this a requirement on your son, it would not set you apart as particularly strict or abusive. Especially since your son isn’t hard-working.
If you agree with Grotonian’s nonsense that a car is your son’s “birthright”, then no, we are not on the same page at all. And maybe that’s why you’re in the predicament that you’ve found yourself in. You’re raising a kid who doesn’t see the point of expending any extra effort, because he’s got an upper middle-class birthright to fall back on. And now you’re telling me he’s right? See, I can’t really hate on him for that. I’d be a slacker too if I were in his shoes.
I don’t see what your dilemma is if you’re just going to give him a car anyway. And if you haven’t made up your mind on this, then I honestly don’t know what you’re disagreeing with me about.
Every hard decision you have to make as a parent carries a risk of damaging your relationship. In theory, any reasonable demand you make on your son could cause him to flip out. But I can’t help but feel if you’re that worried about your relationship falling to pieces over something like a car, then you will always live in fear. If your 15-year-old slacker becomes a 30-year-old basement dweller, are you still going to be reluctant to draw a firm line in the sand?
Just seems to me that this is as good a time as any to give your son a taste of the real world. The real world doesn’t care about carrots OR sticks. It just cares about money. Telling your son that he has to buy his own car (whether through earning money for it or through good grades) is just giving him a chance to learn an important life lesson. If he wants to act grown, then give him a grown-up responsibility. You can cover the insurance and the gas. But give him a mountain to climb on his own so he can take pride in a major accomplishment.
Don’t really see what’s wrong with this approach. But I’m not a parent, so maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about.
Oh, I see. You don’t want really want to hear our opinions. You just want to have your own validated.
Look, it’s your money, dude. Buy the kid a car if that is what you want and you’re confident that it’s the right thing to do (which you don’t otherwise this thread wouldn’t exist). To my outsider perspective, it seems like you’re overly concerned about diagnosing any action towards him as either a punishment or a “carrot”. You realize this is a false dichotomy, right?
Your job as a parent is to instill in your kid an appreciation for cause and effect. This is not a punishing him; it’s teaching him. By refusing to provide him with negative consequences–out of some misguided fear of being the vindictive bad guy who he’ll grow to hate–you’re no better than the teachers that have continued to bail him out of his own failures.
So what? It seems you’ve given up on the idea of modifying his behavior by giving him consequences. Fair enough; I’d probably give up too. That doesn’t mean it makes any sense to just give him what he wants. When he leaves your home, he’ll be in for a rude awakening when he realizes the real world will “punish” him for being lazy and apathetic when it comes to keeping a job, doing what the boss says, clocking in on time, and paying bills. By not preparing him for life’s consequences, you’re doing a disservice to him as a parent.
Adults who routinely shrug off major responsibilities can’t expect to have reliable transportation, nor can they expect toys, freedom, disposable income, and leisure time. The best thing you could do right now for your intractable underachiever is to prepare him for the reality that he is headed towards. It’s the only way he’ll become resourceful enough to manage without depending on others.
Most people in this thread seem to heartily disagree with this assessment.