I'm so mad at my husband!!!

The BBQ Pit
81

This is the tactic recommended by Barbara de Angelis, author of Secrets About Men Every Woman Should Know. I’d read it once before and thought it was … well, much more accurate than not (for a relationship book, that is—bearing in mind that not all men act or think the same).

I picked it up again today at used bookstore El Cheap-o prices to refresh my memory on this, and yeah, she says that hints don’t work. I agree.

For whatever it’s worth, the OP might consider thumbing through a copy of that book (with her husband reading along to confirm that it does indeed apply to him) to see if any of her frustrations might be more easily explained. I don’t generally read relationship books, but from the sound of things, it couldn’t hurt as a starting point to repairing communications.

82

PunditLisa - I agreed with most of your post, except for this bit:

Are you seriously stating that men are inherently thoughtless, uncaring and non-nurturing? Or are you equating male obliviousness to subtlety with these attributes? Because if you are, I have a nice broad brush ready.

83

Gah, this discussion annoys me.

Speaking as a male, and I suppose I’ll just go ahead and admit that I’m a rather chagrined and burned male, it really annoys me how self-righteous people tend to be when they go about complaining about their “boys” or their “husbands.” Maybe I’m just being highly foolish and not seeing things with a good eye, but a majority of these discussions I find are coming from women.

“He don’t do this. He don’t do that. he bothers me. I feel unfulfilled. Where is John Wayne. Why doesn’t he intuitively know my every need, pain, and desire? Where is Clint Eastwood?”

I was sympathizing with the post about half way. I was sympathizing that indeed the day was going not as she’d hoped, and indeed the husband was being a bit careless and selfish.

But the amount of anger to put into that? I guess you’re just venting some irrational frustration, but lately I’ve been looking at relationships from this perspective: It could be a hell of a lot worse.

Seriously, if ink in the clothes and a little “not doing what I want to do” for a couple of months is enough to drive you into the ground, then I don’t know what relationship on this earth can ever work. It’s been a long time, you’re bound to run into some bumps in the road. And some of those bumps are going to be frustrating. But really… he’s not beating you, you’re eating and alive, he isn’t a drunk and he doesn’t emotionally abuse you. He’s not a deadbeat (supposedly), he goes to work (supposedly), and he cares about you genuinely (supposedly).

The best advice another poster offered: Remember why you loved him in the first place.

Do we give up on our children just because they frustrate us? If we did, my mother would have tossed me on the street at the age of 10, and never endured the following years of pure frustration and effort. And my brother would have been put up for adoption.

And like some others have suggested: if there’s a problem, then go to talk to him. Be direct. Don’t be condescending. Treat him like the friend you treated him as when you first started establishing a relationship. Go to him and tell him, honestly, and without all the “And because of you I’m miserable,” and just tell him like it is. And go from there. If he turns out be a belligerant bastard that refuses to acknowledge or listen to you, well then that’s up to you of what do after that.

But it sounds like he’s doing wrong, but instead of saying so to him in a loving manner, you’ve decided he deserves your secret, passive aggressive ire. Don’t do that. That just makes things worse.

There are no white knights. Likewise, there are no fair maidens.

But on a lighter note: Dang, that sounded like a bad day.

84

Cholerics should never marry Sanguines.

85

Sorry for the delay in answering. Allow me to expand on what I was saying. Yes, I do think men are generally far less thoughtful and nurturing than women. But I don’t think men are deliberately thoughtless. I think they are either hard-wired differently or society grooms men and women differently.

Generally speaking (thanks for the brush), women are naturally good observers and good listeners of other people. We notice subtle emotional changes. We notice new outfits and hairdos. We know the name of your wife and your children and we’ll ask about them on occasion. If we see a co-worker having a bad day, we’ll take her to lunch. If we’re browsing through a bookstore and a friend seems intrigued by a book on origami, we’ll make a mental note and buy him that book for his next birthday, even if it’s months away, along with a card that we spent actual minutes personalizing and signing.

In contrast, for our anniversary, my husband bought me a pair of arrest-me-red satin Victoria’s Secret panties and matching bra. In the wrong size.

Now, I used to get hurt and offended by my husband’s “thoughtlessness.” I used to get angry when he didn’t pick up on my body language and gently explore what was wrong. I used to harbor such resentment towards him because he wasn’t…well, because he wasn’t more like me.

But after 16 (not 18, sorry.) years of marriage, I’ve learned and accepted that: a) Unless it’s December 24th, my husband will NEVER make a mental note on that origami book. (And if it IS December 24th, look hard enough and you’ll see the lightbulb turn on in his head, which is really kinda cute.); b) Flowers, like clockwork, will arrive on my birthday and our anniversary, but NEVER “just because.”** c) He’s never going to notice, or respond to, a subtle pout. So don’t even try it.

More importantly, I have also learned that none of this means that he doesn’t love me. He does. He’s just wired differently than men. He’s not a little things kind of guy. And, despite my best efforts, he never will be.

So instead of banging my head against the wall trying to get him to SEE things my way, it’s far easier and ultimately more healthy for the relationship, for me to simply accept him the way he is.
**Unless I’ve exhausted myself by hysterically pounding home the point that OCCASIONALLY I WOULD LOVE TO GET FLOWERS ‘JUST BECAUSE.’ If that is the case, I will get a bouquet of flowers… the very next day. And the card will read, “Just because.” At which point, he will be genuinely flabbergasted as to why the flowers frustrate me even more, because hasn’t he followed my instructions to the letter??? :slight_smile:

86

Same old story. We’re not like you and you’re not like us. Makes it more interesting!

To us, your getting “angry when he didn’t pick up on my body language and gently explore what was wrong” might read “I’m unhappy and I’m taking it out on you”. The importance you attach to the “little things” can make us feel like you’ve got your grading card out all the time. Our job seems to be to make you happy, your job seems to be to grade us on how well we’re doing. And there’s no question that you could possibly be making us unhappy, because of course you do all these caring, nurturing little things for us. Feels very unbalanced, and gets old fast! (subtle pout = “what have I done now?”)

This is nothing more than a mismatch of perceptions and priorities on both sides, but understand that your being different from us can be just as baffling and frustrating as us being different from you.

I once had four girlfriends (in the platonic sense) who shared a house. It was very far from a caring, nurturing feminine nirvana, with them all tuned into each others needs and doing considerate little things all the time. It was halfway between true thoughtlessness and outright spite. No real point to make here, just a counterexample.

87

I don’t expect my husband to read my mind; I remind him when my birthday is, and I tell him a couple of things that I would like as gifts (with the note that he doesn’t need reminders about occasions - he’s very good about marking his calendar). What does bug me, though, and I mentioned in an earlier post, is that we have discussed his baseball habit; I have told him extremely clearly that he is spending too much time on baseball and the house and our relationship is suffering as a result (and we’re talking gone four or five days a week here, not the occasional Saturday afternoon). He is getting hassled by his best friend for putting baseball ahead of his marriage.

So what do I do? Keep nagging him? I don’t nag much. He’s an adult; after I’ve told him what’s bugging me, I expect an adult response back. He doesn’t have to change to suit me, and I don’t expect everything to go my way, but when I make a reasonable request (maybe cut the baseball back to two or three times a week), I expect a reasonable response. Dump a good man because he coaches baseball too much? That would be way over the top, and not even an option. But I’m still not happy with things the way they are, and he’s still not changing them, and I get the feeling this is not at all unusual in marriages.

88

I’d say keep bringing it up. You’re right that constant nagging only makes things worse, but you should honestly continue to confront him with the issue. Tell him you’d wish he’d spend more time with you instead of baseball.

Also, while I’m not a big fan of “gang him up with his friend,” sometimes I think it’s okay to have one trusted person off hand being coached to remind him when he’s doing something he shouldn’t be. I think you’re point on baseball is quite valid. It is taking over his life. He should change it. At the same time, clearly he’s really attached to baseball, so on the other hand you probably shouldn’t expect his hobby to simply dissolve into space.

But talk to him seriously about it. Why not ask him why he likes to watch baseball so much?

I suppose the following wouldn’t be very effective: “You don’t hang out with me anymore. Wah.”

But imploring him seriously and having a discussion might, although it sounds mighty corny.

89

It’s not watching … it’s coaching baseball, if I’m following correctly.

Featherlou … is he a volunteer coach? Or is he a coach at a high school or college or something?

90

Nah, I’d say both men and women are contrasting flavors of crazy. We don’t get their insanity, they sure as HELL don’t get ours. :wink:

91

I did this real long post the other day but then it didn’t work. All that typing, a list of 10 things, and it didn’t take! I gave up.

Okay, just to point out a few things…

Kittenblue didn’t mention that I knit during the sermon at church but I can’t be seen by anyone but the sound man and a few members of the choir. It’s still rude, I know, but that’s the way it is. I have to listen to the sermon twice. 47 Sundays a year (5 Sundays off). I can listen while knitting.

And yes, I know the Giro d’Italia is in May. I was painfully aware of that when it was sounding in the background of my life.

I guess these are my questions for myself, really:

Why can’t I really enjoy doing what he likes to do? Or at least enjoy it longer? I like the canoeing, I just don’t want to portage from little lake to little lake for six hours.

Or why I can’t I just not feel guilty that I don’t like doing that activity so he can go and do it and have a good time? Why should I make myself feel like I’m a bad partner because I don’t want to go with him? I do believe it’s fine for married people to have different interests, friends and activities, as long as there are some together things, too. But I still feel guilty about it.

I do things with friends without him. Recent stuff: A comedy club with a friend who won 8 free tickets (Kittenblue was there, too!). I go to ice cream with some friends on Thursday nights. I meet some friends for breakfast every Monday morning. I’m going to an outdoor concert in August with some friends. I’m going to a wedding without him on Saturday because he really would not have a good time so I finally told him, just stay home! I’ll have more fun without worrying about you being miserable.

Why can’t I enjoy cooking and feeding my husband and daughter? I don’t have that wonderful drive to feed people. I feel guilty about that ALL THE TIME. My husband and daughter are both very thin people. They both know how to feed themselves quite well. But I feel bad about it.

So on Tuesday night I said let’s go to this new restaurant and he immediately agreed to go with me. Our daughter decided to stay home, so that was good because we got to talk. The different thing about this is that I usually have to talk about going out to eat for a couple of hours before it can sink in and he’ll finally agree or say he doesn’t want to.

Then on Thursday night when I was going to get ice cream with my friends he voluntarily decided to go with me.

So I think he is making an effort to be a little more involved in my life.

He does come to most of my concerts, just apparently does not enjoy handbells, which was a bit of a surprise because he joined the handbell choir way back when we were dating. Apparently that was just to get near me. I guess that’s okay. Handbell music is not for everyone.

He’s basically supportive of my music. I was a music major, he went to all my concerts and recitals and even would come to hear me practice sometimes in college. A couple of years ago I decided to take some organ lessons to learn some new things and improve a bit. I was very excited about finding this wonderful teacher. When I told him about it he wanted to know how much it was going to cost. $30 a lesson, twice a month. Then he said, “How are you going to pay for it?” “Well, I’M GOING TO WRITE A CHECK!!” What did I want him to say? “Honey, that’s great! I haven’t seen you this excited about anything for a long time!” He usually does not say what I want him to say. And yes, I did tell him how disappointing that was.

I took lessons, I studied to pass an organ playing examination, I passed, I got a special certification, and I parlayed it into a pretty good raise.

What am I probably really upset about? In one year our daughter will be going to college. At least I hope she will! Then we will be just the two of us again and have to face our marriage and whether or not it is viable. Next May we will have been married 25 years.

Things we do enjoy together:

We like the same kind of movies and television shows, mostly. There is rarely a movie he wants to see that I don’t want to see. Sometimes there is a movie he doesn’t want to see with me, so I go with friends or my daughter. He doesn’t care for action, horror, adventure-type films so I don’t have to go to those. Well, he did like Star Wars and Lord of the Rings. I liked Star Wars, but Lord of the Rings drove me crazy. Did we have to see every single orc get killed? Did the fighting scenes have to go on so long that my rear end got numb? Sometimes it’s a comedy that it a little too ridiculous for me, but I’ll go to that. (Bowfinger)

We are of the same political bent. We believe the same things are important in the world. So that is one thing we never disagree about.

He’ll go to concerts, plays and shows with me. He enjoys all of those things.

Things I am going to be more thankful in the future, that I have learned from these posts:

The fact that he wants me to go with him on the occasional business trip. I have gone with him to Ontario, Montreal, New Orleans and Chicago. My daughter and I have gone with him to Boston, San Francisco, Lake Tahoe and Orlando.

The fact that he figured out long ago how to get some food on the table.

Next time I go on a trip, I’m getting Kittenblue to stay with my dog because the housesitter this past time didn’t spend the night at the house. She left the dog in her cage every night. The dog was hoarse from all the barking. I’m really mad about this. It will never happen again.

Have a good weekend!

92

Jeebus. Some of us might have slightly higher standards. He’s not a drunk? He’s not a womanizer? He’s not a deadbeat? So that should be good enough for her?

Do you have any idea how patronizing and dismissive that comes across? Like to stay married, even if you feel like a bit of you is dying every day, is more important than anything else. If you were that awful at 10, maybe Mom should have looked into some counselling for you and your brother. I think that some marital counselling would not be amiss here.

What if a male friend said to you, “I feel like I’m married to a stranger. We never have sex. She ignores me. She is always out and when she’s home she is pre-occupied. She never wants to do what I want. I am mad as hell about it.”

Would your response be:“She’s not cheating on you. She’s not a drunk. She’s working, so she’s not a deadbeat. She’s ok with the kids and the housekeeping, so quit your bitching.”?

How about a guy who is emotionally present in the home? How about there be more of a balance of needs and priorities? The guy with the coaching thing–that is downright scarey. He is using it to avoid intimacy. He is putting his hobby before his spouse, and may one day wake up to find himself with a hobby, but no spouse.

Fine, lose the handbell attendance, and you’ll both be better off. But the sense of entitlement–my wife should want to bike ride with me, go canoeing with me, all the time and when I want to, has got to end. It isn’t fair for her to demand the same of him, either. But she isn’t. If she doesn’t want to go to SF, she shouldn’t feel obliged to go–even if he wants her to. I don’t think the knitting is rude, BTW, you are in a different position than a person who is in full view of the performers that he agreed to come see.

I think it’s great that he went out for ice cream with the OP. That’s a good thing.

I am not saying that males are scum and Neanderthals. I think Maureen got it right–we each have our insanities and it’s difficult to understand one anothers.

93

I don’t equate being “emotionally present” with “mind-reading.” From what I’ve heard so far, he has upset her because a) he didn’t say the things that she didn’t tell him she wanted him to say, and b) he didn’t fix the problem she didn’t tell him she was having.

And seriously, go out and read that book I mentioned earlier. Speaking as a man, it has some excellent insights on how men tend to communicate, and ineffective ways women use to try to communicate at us. On this topic the author writes:

I think that’s a bit of a pre-leapt conclusion, there. He could have many reasons why he hasn’t immediately given up his hobby at his wife’s request, and this is only one of them.

94

I believe it is my husband who has the coaching thing (he volunteer coaches for a competitive league for 15 - 19 year olds) - he started coaching with his dad, he’s been coaching the same team for about 20 years now, and he loves coaching. I have never asked him to quit - only to cut it back a little. It’s an issue we’re still working on - he doesn’t want to put coaching ahead of his marriage, but the coaching demands a lot from him. We’re working on finding the balance.

Lilith, it’s interesting that you mention guilt so often. What are you so guilty about?

95

featherlou --fair enough. Perhaps he doesn’t realize just how much coaching takes away from his marriage. As someone who has volunteered for many many things over time–it can become more than a full time job. good luck with it.

Fish -you are the only one who is equating emotionally present with mind reading. IMO, one reason the OP is so upset about a “small thing” is that it most likely is a pattern–and resentment has built up. Please don’t mix up feelings and thoughts. She can feel anything she wants over this–and express herself (here) anyway she likes.

When she speaks to her husband about the issue, she needs to use “I” statements, not a blaming game; she needs to be clear and specific about what her needs are. Basic assertiveness, really. It can be hard to pull off, if someone is sitting on X numbers of years of anger. (not saying the OP is, just an example).

I don’t need to read a book to know that men and women communicate differently. Frankly, I would have more respect for your position if you had said that you had read a book on how women communicate. Afterall, having the woman do the reading and all the adjustments in her communication to suit a man’s “way of communicating” just puts the onus back on her, no?

BOTH people involved need to try and foster communication.

96

eleanorigby, I quite agree that she can feel any way she likes. I have yet to see any evidence that the explicitly communicated her desires and her actual problems to her husband, only that she’s upset that he didn’t already know them. I can understand a desire to feel the kind of close, intimate connection with someone such that they’re able to sense your emotional state instantly and instinctively, and why she might be upset that this level of closeness doesn’t exist. My recommendation of that book was to help promote an understanding of why it might not exist.

I also very much agree on “I” statements, illustrating how she feels and why, and being clear about her own needs.

And frankly, I have read a book on how women communicate, by the same author: What Women Want Men To Know. It was on the strength of that book that I bought and read the other. So… yeah, I have done my homework here, thanks for asking, and nobody asked me or prompted me to read them, either. I saw them and decided I should attempt to educate myself, and thus I recommend the OP do the same; I didn’t mention the other book because I presumed, possibly in error, that the OP knew herself well enough that she didn’t need a book.

Neither book has the central theme of “what men do wrong and how they should change to make women happy” or “stupid things women do that drive men away.” I wouldn’t have recommended them if they had. The two companion books are both far more sensitive to the idea that communication and connection is a cooperative effort than either of us are probably being right now.

97

Yes, he should divorce you.

98

Thanks for your contribution, ouryL. Once again you have quoted the entire OP for no apparent reason, and thrown in a complete non sequitor to boot. You are of course free to post any way you like here, but your way is getting to be a pain in the ass.

99

Maybe the Dope shoul divorce ouryL. :wink:

100

Sigh… and this was my point. I was never trying to say, “You should stay married no matter what, even if it turns out that you’re dying inside every day and he’s not budgng.” That would indeed be nonsense.

But, as Fish has already put it better than I could, reading the OP, I didn’t see any point in her story that indicated, “And then we sat down and communicated our difficulties to each other civilly.” I only read, “I’m right! He’s wrong! He’s hurting me! This is all his fault!”

Yes, he has some faults, but relationships only fall apart if you come in to it with your combat gear on and a 64oz blame bucket in your hands. It’s very possible that he simply isn’t even aware of what’s happening. Men can be like that. I can speak, as a male myself, from experience. I could go on for months not sensing anything wrong or troublesome in a relationship, and then six months down the road gasp the whole thing gets sprung on me.

I’ll admit the kids analogy sucked though.