I'm still me, aren't I?

[Dancing_Fool]

@Sternvogel

§ 106.03. SALE TO MINORS. (a) A person commits an offense if with criminal negligence he sells an alcoholic beverage to a minor. b) A person who sells a minor an alcoholic beverage does not commit an offense if the minor falsely represents himself to be 21 years old or older by displaying an apparently valid Texas driver’s license or an identification card issued by the Texas Department of Public Safety, containing a physical description consistent with his appearance for the purpose of inducing the person to sell him an alcoholic beverage.

Forget the use of ID’s - I’m still stunned by the age limit. You can’t drink until you’re 21? No wonder Australia gets all those backpackers staying here for several years.

You can have sex, get married, join the army, and get a drivers license at 18, but drinking is somehow different? How on earth did that law ever get passed, and why does it still exist?

And just as a matter of interest, how old do you have to be to buy tobacco?

[Drum_God]

@Q.E.D.

Well, no. It’s definitely the store. The law says absolutely nothing about requiring stores to check ID for alcohol sales. It only states what forms of ID are acceptable for the store to cover itself. Stores then set their policies for ID checking, not the law. A legal-aged ATF officer can walk into a liquor store and if the clerk doesn’t ask for ID, the ATF guy has nothing to say about it.

Thanks to Sternvogel for finding the actual statute. No, it doesn’t require that stores check for a valid Texas ID or DL, it just means that a Texas ID is the only way a store can cover themselves. If I present a fake Louisiana ID, the store could be charged with committing an offense. If I present a fake Texas ID, then I am the one who has committed an offense. I have heard of stores near military bases having trouble because military personnel will want to be alcohol and can’t because they can’t produce a Texas ID. All the military ID in the world won’t help if the store is fearful of not being able to prove due diligence.

I’ve always wondered how sting operations work to enforce these rules. If the cops send a minor in to buy alcohol and he’s successful, haven’t the cops committed a crime by contributing to the delinquency of a minor? If he’s unsuccessful, then no crime is committed. If the cops send in someone over twentyone to see if he/she is carded, then what are they really checking. The guy buys beer and leaves. No crime is committed.

[Q.E.D]

@Drum God

I’ve always wondered how sting operations work to enforce these rules. If the cops send a minor in to buy alcohol and he’s successful, haven’t the cops committed a crime by contributing to the delinquency of a minor?

Apparently not. Stories such as this which appear regularly in the newspapers indicate to me that underage youths are often used in such sting operations. I would guess that since the minors are not allowed to keep and consume the alcohol they are sent to buy then the police have broken no laws.

[TeaElle]

@Dancing Fool

How on earth did that law ever get passed, and why does it still exist?

It’s mainly about drinking and driving, and partially about accidents and alcohol poisoning deaths on college campuses, where the majority of students are under 21. The strong lobby of Mothers Against Drunk Driving got the higher drinking age laws passed in a number of the states, then put the pressure on in Washington D.C. to get a mandate handed down from the federal government, demanding that all of the states who had not yet raised their drinking age to 21 do so by a certain deadline (which I believe was in 1990) or risk losing all of their federal highway funding, money which is greatly needed to maintain and build roads.

It is statistically true that those who are under 25 (not just 21) drive while intoxicated more than any other age group, have more accidents (driving and otherwise) while intoxicated than any other age group and kill themselves (in accidents in cars and otherwise and via alcohol poisoning) and other people (in road accidents) while intoxicated more than any other age group. However, the statistics regarding 18-21 group have improved significantly since the age was raised, which allows proponents to regard the change as meaningful and successful.

And just as a matter of interest, how old do you have to be to buy tobacco?

18, the age of simple majority.

[Loach]

I’ve always wondered how sting operations work to enforce these rules. If the cops send a minor in to buy alcohol and he’s successful, haven’t the cops committed a crime by contributing to the delinquency of a minor? If he’s unsuccessful, then no crime is committed. If the cops send in someone over twentyone to see if he/she is carded, then what are they really checking. The guy buys beer and leaves. No crime is committed.

You have to have a minor to contribute to the delinquency of one. A sting can use 18 year olds. Still illegal to sell alcohol to them but they are not minors, they are adults.

[dauerbach]

On my son’s actual birthday he ran out to get a new drivers license. That night we took him out to eat, and as he had actually hoped he got carded. He is a young looking 21. The waitress looks at the card, looks at him, looks at the card, and says she thinks the ID is faked. Now remember, he’s with his parents. Anyway, I say check out the shirt on the license. Same shirt. I say check out the birthdate. Like he has 365 ID’s one for each day of the year. And she asks him “what time were you born?” He finally got his beer, which he didn’t even like.

[Mirth]

I imagine tourists in Texas are quite unpleasantly surprised by our drinking laws, as we have some very bizarre and complicated ones, IMO. We have dry counties, where you can’t sell any liquor; wet counties, where you can sell liquor; and damp counties, which is what I live in. You can sell beer and wine at grocery stores, but not liquor. If you want a bottle of Jack, you’ll have to drive to the nearest wet county. However, you can buy hard liquor at bars and restaurants in damp counties (but not by the bottle and you can’t take them out of the building.) I’m not sure how it works in all damp counties, but here you can buy beer and wine at the grocery store with just your TX ID. However, at bars and restaurants, we also have to show what’s called a Unicard. The Unicard is basically a loophole that has something to do with drinking laws for members of private clubs.

My father-in-law, who is in his 50s and from a wet county in Texas was highly surprised and irate when he found that he couldn’t have a glass of wine with his meal until either my husband or I showed the waiter a Unicard.

Also, even in wet counties, you can buy beer and wine until midnight, but no hard liquor after nine. And I want to say there’s some rule about not being able to buy on Sunday but I’m not positive about that one.

[micco]

@Mirth

The Unicard is basically a loophole that has something to do with drinking laws for members of private clubs.

This is OT but…

Some counties are “wet” but do not allow alcohol consumption in public. That means no bars or restaurants can serve alcohol. If you are a bar or restaurant, you become (technically) a private club and every customer has to be in the company of a member. Memberships are available for a one-dollar fee which goes, I believe, to the TABC (Texas Alcoholic Beverage Control?). The Unicard is a shortcut where a bunch of “clubs” agree to provide reciprocity so if you’re a member of one, you’re a member of all. There are some which don’t take the Unicard and you have to pay the fee to be a member of that club. Obviously if you don’t order alcohol, they don’t bother to check membership

I don’t think you have to have a Texas ID to get a membership, just any valid ID (up to the discretion of the management as noted earlier in the thread). I’m pretty sure I got memberships as needed with a CA ID when I moved back to Texas.

I believe the system remains in place because no one has the political will to change it since the current system doesn’t really restrict anything. It’s an annoyance and a revenue generator for the state, so everyone just puts up with it and grumbles when someone at the table has to cough up an extra buck to get served in a new place.

[ouryL]

@zev_steinhardt

My driver’s license expired within the last month. Of course, I went down to the DMV to get a new one and it recently arrived in the mail.

However, while I was waiting, I was, for a few days, without a driver’s license. Since I take the train every day, it wasn’t so big of a deal.

However, one day, I wanted to visit a friend in a building here in Manhattan. Like most office buildings, there is a rudimentary security where you must show some identification to enter the building. So, when asked, I pulled out my now-expired driver’s license.

“I’m sorry, sir,” the security guard said, “this license is expired. I’ll need some other form of ID.”

“What?” was my incredulous reply.

“Your license is expired. I can’t accept it. I have to see a current license.”

“Why?”

“Building policy,” came the reply.

“Let me ask you a question,” I said. “If I showed up here two weeks ago [before the license expired] you would have let me through, correct?”

“Yes.”

“Well, have I stopped being who I am in the last two weeks simply because someone printed an expiration date on a document? I’m still me, aren’t I?”

In the end, my arguments fell on deaf ears. Now, I understand that New York State puts expiration dates on driver’s licenses so that they can get another $50 or so every X number of years. I understand that and can deal with it. But this is just plain silly.

For those of you knowledgeable about security (or anyone else) , I ask the following question:

Is there any legitimate security reason why a recently expired (within the last month) is unacceptable in the situation I described above? Was there some real, legitimate reason for excluding me from the building?

Zev Steinhardt

This happens all the time, people with no brains. If the licence was, say, ten years old, then I would understand. Next time have him call the building management.

[ouryL]

@MaryEFoo

The security guy was doing his job right. He probably has a list of what’s allowed, and it would include “valid State driver’s license” and “valid State ID”. If it’s expired, it’s not valid, so it’s not on the list. Any other oddity would shoot it down also.

Yes, you aren’t required to have a State-issued ID, except that without it you can’t drive, you can’t enter buildings, you can’t get a job, you can’t fly, you can’t get your money out of your bank account.

And the states have coordinated their ID databases, so the United States didn’t have to issue a required Federal ID card, which would have been politically unfeasible.

Back to the subject, I found my driver’s license was expired when I went to my bank for money. He bent the point (it’s a very human instution), by asking me for all the information that was in my paperwork–birthdate, SSN, address, phone, …) and it worked out.

PS, I like the phrase ‘security theatre’. Too true.

No, an expired licence is an valid form of ID but not valid for driving purposes.

[Chronos]

No, an expired licence is an valid form of ID but not valid for driving purposes.

If that’s so, then why do non-driving state IDs have expiration dates? I just checked mine to confirm, and it does indeed have an expiration date on it.

[ouryL]

@Chronos

If that’s so, then why do non-driving state IDs have expiration dates? I just checked mine to confirm, and it does indeed have an expiration date on it.

So that 90-year-old men don’t use an ID they got when they were 17.

[Fear_Itself]

@ouryL

So that 90-year-old men don’t use an ID they got when they were 17.

So what? To reprise the OP, he is still himself, right? Name is the same, birthdate is the same, so why do we need an expiration date?

[micco]

@ouryL

No, an expired licence is an valid form of ID but not valid for driving purposes.

Any ID is only as valid as the one requesting the ID wants to make it. Every state has decided that an expired license is not valid for driving. There’s no reason why any building security policy can’t say the same thing. They could choose to say that people who enter their building must present an unexpired Alaskan drivers license with an even numbered street address if they wanted to. They’re not declaring other IDs universally invalid, but invalid for their purposes.

An expired license may be valid in some case. It may be invalid in others. It depends on who wrote the security policy for the specific case.

[micco]

@Fear Itself

So what? To reprise the OP, he is still himself, right? Name is the same, birthdate is the same, so why do we need an expiration date?

Of course he’s still himself. The question is whether he can adequately prove it to someone else.

If the OP wants something from me (buy liquor, get into my building, enter my super-secret lair, etc.) he has to meet my requirements for identification. If he just wants to buy booze, I might accept an expired DL or even visual appearance that he’s old enough. I don’t care who he is as long as he’s of age. If he wants to get into my limited-access building, I’m going to want more. I might require an unexpired ID so I can reasonably assume the address is current and log that info. If he wants more access, I want more proof. If I reject his ID, it doesn’t mean he’s not himself, it just means he hasn’t met my requirements for proving it. He’s free to go be himself somewhere else, but if he wants something from me, then he has to play by my rules.