In defence of Russia

The BBQ Pit
1521

I just can’t help myself Komrad, it’s just too easy to take swipes at your blatant stupidity. Ever have a gnawing feeling that you’ve missed pointing out something important and just had to go back to look to see what was sounding alarm bells in your mind?

It was this nugget of wisdom of yours. See, aside from the fact the fact that you erroneously decided that hand grenades have ‘an arming pin and associated hardware’ when that is in fact what the fuze is for, it’s that you consider such a system to be a waste when dealing with high explosives. It’s truly a shame that you aren’t working at one of Putin’s munition plants, Komrad. “Arming pin! Waste! Who wouldn’t want their high explosives to be primed to detonate at all times! Only pansies and wastrels would be afraid of dying from random detonations at any time from when munitions leave the factory floor until they are dropped from a drone! In fact, fuck even leaving the factory floor, I want my factories to be exploding because someone slipped and dropped one! I want my trucks and trains carrying them to explode setting off all the other munitions they are loaded with because there was a tiny bump in the road, or they accelerated or decelerated too fast! Those that make it all the way to the front lines should have their operators’ sweating bullets terrified that they might jostle it the wrong way! The ones that actually make it all the way to be attached to drones should be exploding mid-air because the drone operator banked the drone too hard!”

Written as only a complete moron with no experience in handling explosives or the imagination to consider what handling them would be like could. My hat is off to you Komrad!

1522

For the record, the ‘arming pin’ on a hand grenade is the pin that is attached to a ring. Inside of the fuze there is a spring-loaded striker. The striker is held back by the ‘spoon’ (the handle thingy). When the pin is pulled, the soldier holds the spoon against the case to prevent the striker from… er, striking the primer. The fuze will burn a certain number of seconds before it ignites the charge. When the grenade is thrown, the spoon comes off because the striker is pushing it off. Bang goes the primer, fizz goes the fuze, and a few seconds later boom goes the grenade. The whole fuze assembly weighs a couple of ounces.

And yes, the pin is much preferred to having people walking around just holding the spoon against the case.

1523

:notes:Bang bang bang goes the primer
Fiz fiz fiz goes the fuse
Boom boom boom goes the grenade
From the moment I saw him I kill :notes:

Sorry. It’s that time o the year.

1524

From a drone, this grenade would only need the aforementioned fins to stabilize. No chute. The moving weight device would not be required, detonation could be achieved by a nose mounted plunger that causes detonation on impact. The plunger can be disabled with a light pin that is hooked to the drone via something like high strength fishing line. When the device is dropped the pin pulls out. Explosion on impact.

So chute assembly weight is discarded, moving weight mechanism is discarded. Handle is discarded as it is not thrown, but dropped.

Now you have a lighter device. The main explosive package can be the same, doing the same damage. It may even be cheaper to build. The drone can now have increased range. Maybe it can carry more of them the same distance.

I asked if research and maybe production of dedicated drone munitions was being done. Slight modifications of existing munitions does count I suppose. But I already knew of these. The use of the smaller drones as attack weapons is very new and proving very effective. So creating optimal munitions will make them even better.

1525

These are actually much closer to a good drone munition. Dangerous to do it this way though.
The article mentions the extra weight construction to withstand being fired.

1526

Grenades cause most of their damage through shrapnel. So why not remove the explosive, that is clearly just deadweight, and add some more shrapnel instead? Has anyone done any research into this?

1527

I don’t hold the average citizen of any country responsible for all of the decisions of their government. Everybody has some concerns about some policies and this certainly applies to Russia as well. That said, what to make of this?

1528

Quite the callback here.

1529

Some things should never be resurrected.

1530

Komrad! You must forward this brilliance in designing explosives and how safety is unnecessary waste on to the Kremlin! They would benefit greatly from your deep understanding on the subject!

Why, it’s almost as brilliant as your idea that making a pipe bomb and putting a metal plug at the back of it would do anything to armored plate because “No need for upward blast. Outward and downward best.” I mean, fuck shaped charges actually being able to penetrate armor; the answer is to put a metal plug in ass of pipe bomb, outward and downward best!

1531

“We must move forward, not backward; upward, not forward; and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom!”

1532

I was going to ask what shape is a fuck, but then you gave the answer immediately!

1533

Kedikat, it is a little unclear what you are asking about; do you mean new, purpose-built munitions for drone use, or retasking existing weapons to make them drone-worthy?

Right now, Ukraine is mostly retasking existing equipment. This is because it is mass-produced and already available in quantity. So it really doesn’t make much sense to talk about radical modifications to existing hardware if those mods have to be made in large volume. Better to do minimal mods that just make them serviceable.

Redesigning a hand grenade isn’t helpful. You also have to ask why they are designed the way they are.

For instance, why did the designers choose an inertial weight trigger instead of a plunger like you suggest? Why do they include the parachute?

Remember, this example was a hand- thrown, anti-tank weapon. Did Russians not understand how contact munitions work better than timed fuzes for tanks?

You suggested a simple design pipe bomb. That might work for anti-personnel uses, where fragmentation is the damage maker, but antitank design is more sophisticated because it has to be. Putting a large plate on one end is not going to funnel the blast the way you think.

That is why shaped charges were invented. But they require rather narrow angle of impact to be able to blast through thick armor.

As you linked, a better option is taking the munitions from cluster-bombs, because the individual bomblets are already optimally designed for air drop. It takes minimal change to make them drone deployable, though the disassembly is somewhat risky. Better if the munition suppliers could provide completed bomblets without the housings. Deliver the useful items before assembling the whole device that has to be deconstructed.

But repurposing means taking something that exists rather than trying to get something made by suppliers.

It can be worthy to consider improvements, both in retasked hardware as well as new weapons systems. But know which you are doing, and know why existing hardware is the way it is. Don’t just assume.

1534

My pipe bomb was just to illustrate what could be removed to simplify and lighten things. I noted the payload was optional.

I meant new purpose built research for lighter weight drone drop munitions. Thrown or explosively launched munitions require various extra weight design aspects.

And thank you for a civil interaction.

1535

I suspect you know these answers.
The inertial weight trigger is self contained, not exposed while being carried and banged about. Kept clean and sealed up. The chute orients a tumbling thrown object, so when it hits, the inertial weight goes the right way.

1536

I wonder if any of the facilities still exist. Cluster rounds are frowned upon and out of production for quite some time. But in small number drone drops, the negative aspects of them are greatly reduced.
U.S. and Russia still have large stockpiles they did not decommission. I am surprised Ukraine does not have large old Russian stockpiles as well.

1537

In a pinch, figure out how to drone drop one. But also take the time to design an optimal dronegrenade. Lighter weight safety pin, pulled on drop. No “spoon” ( Johnny L.A. nomenclature info ) . No timed fuse assembly.

Please know I am not trying to denigrate what you are saying. Just explaining my thoughts in relation to your post. Your points are valid. I know why a hand grenade is made that way. The " Hand " part of the name matters a lot in the design. Keeping the hand.

1538

Ah Komrad! Are you drunk again? What am I saying, you’re always drunk. I see we’ve progressed beyond “arming mechanisms are unnecessary waste” when dealing with high explosives to understand why you think this is so. The pipe bomb with a plug in its ass to produce “No need for upward blast. Outward and downward best.” is producing this explosion by magic! The payload is optional! Brilliant Komrad, have you forwarded your idea to Putin yet? Ah, why am I asking, you’d have had a tragic accident fallen out of a window already if you’d told Putin something that stupid.

1539

If there is no spoon, what holds the striker? If we’re talking improvised fragmentation grenades, the weight of the pin is negligible. FWIW, it requires 7 to 11 pounds of force to pull the pin. There is actually a very simple way to use hand grenades as drone-dropped weapons, and I would be surprised if it has not been used. A booby trap that has been used in decades uses a grenade with the pin pulled. The spoon is held down, and the grenade is inserted into a glass jar or piece of bamboo. When someone trips the trip wire, the jar is dropped and the glass breaks, releasing the lever; or the grenade is allowed to fall out of the tube with the same result. With a drone, mount PVC tubes vertically. With the spoon held down by the tube, you just need a simple mechanism to retain the grenade. Send the signal, and gravity does the rest. With proper fitting, you could even use a pin that requires less force to pull, and that holds the grenade during flight.

In any case, there’s no need to design a new grenade when existing ones are plentiful, cheap, as light as they can be while still doing the job, and easily improvised for deployment from drones. Hand grenades are very simple.

1540

ABC News has a story on Ukraine’s Siberian Battalion - containing Russian volunteers who’ve endured a lengthy process so they can fight against their country.

"Another Russian fighter, who goes by the call sign Holod, openly says he wants Putin’s administration removed from power.

"When this happens, we can talk about victory,” he said. “Russia will at least cease to be a source of sudden aggression.”