Another thing that makes a lot of people uncomfortable about wokeness is that there is no clear finish line. It’s more like a goalpost that gets moved a thousand times.
When or if woke people get their way on one issue, they don’t call it a day and stop. They then move onto the next issue that captures their attention. And the next. And the next. And the next. There is no end to it. If you cave in and let them have what they want on one issue, they’re back the next day, demanding something new.
Why do you make these random, cite-free characterizations? This is just meaningless. At best a vague stereotype.
Fair enough, you brought it up as an example. If it wasn’t a good example, that’s fine too.
I don’t know what can be taken away from it, other than accepting transwomen as women makes women feel vulnerable in women only spaces.
I don’t know what your position is on it, but like I said, you seem very careful to not take a position on anything.
The point I think that you were trying to make there is that the leadership as well as 90% of the those who support trans rights would not agree that it is an acceptable tradeoff to deny transwomen rights in order to make women feel safer, and that 90% is wrong to take that position, and that it is the minority who are in the right.
But, I could be wrong as to why you brought it up.
I’m not playing a game at all. I’m not invoking plausible deniability, I’m just saying that nutpicking is not the best way of telling the position of a movement.
I stand by that. And I stand by my observation that criticisms of “wokeness” are based on examples of outliers and people who do not understand or articulate the position well.
Yeah, I know the feeling.
Honestly, I really do not understand what this debate is about at this point. You have not taken a position, just criticized positions that others have taken. Always being the target’s a very frustrating game to play.
I think that it is both that, in that it does highlight what is problematic, and should be curtailed in others, but I think that it also does the same for oneself.
There may be things that someone does that they don’t even know are harmful or unpleasant to others, and rather than being called out at the office cooler about them, learning about them in a diversity training class, recognizing the problematic behavior in themselves, and curtailing it without having to have a conversation with PR is the goal here.
I doubt you’d post the same if the print had Hitler and Mussolini plastered all over it. The left is far too dismissive of the monstrous figures and history that the far left is responsible for. An order of magnitude, literally, more deaths than the holocaust and it’s laughed about.
You keep condemning the left with hypotheticals. Meanwhile, the far right in our country is actually killing people. I don’t give a shit about your hypotheticals, to be clear, except to point out how astonishingly silly they are.
You know why history is important? Because there is more to learn and apply to now than the events of the last 5 minutes. There is nothing hypothetical about 100 million plus dead and the ideology that led to the empowerment of the monsters responsible.
Wokeness is a tip of an ideological spear.
The training that we have at my workplace paints the broad strokes of unacceptable behavior.
I think the broad strokes are what 90% of people need to be decent. 8-9% will learn through some gentle HR corrective action. And 1-2% are too derpy or whatever to be educable.
I do think managers should get a more focused training than the rank and file get. I think managers need to know about things like implicit bias and the dos and don’ts of managing diverse staff. Like, I’ve noticed that my boss tends to default to sports talk when he’s being sociable. That’s great for the employees who watch sports, but it sucks for those of us who have other interests.
Yes, I know why history is important. It teaches me that the number of murders committed by people wearing pop-art skirts is exactly zero, but that the number of murders committed by people who are trying to whip everyone up into a frenzy about those SCARY LEFTISTS is in the millions.
Out of curiosity, would two you say that you represent the anti-woke crowd? That you should be used as an example of those who are against it?
Should your words and actions be used to judge anyone who is negative against the concept of wokeness?
Like I said, I know your tune and practically everyone else’s on this site would be 180 degrees different if it were a pop art Hitler or even worse a picture of a Robert E. Lee statue.
I hope I don’t regret this. But I don’t want you to continue to say to me that I’ve not made my position clear:
I think trans people deserve every single right just like everybody else.
I think that trans people currently use the bathrooms of their choice and most people aren’t the wiser or simply don’t care.
I think JKR is correct in her observations about a subset of trans culture and activism.
I do speculatively think that a majority of those being vocal in criticizing JKR are in the wrong and have not evaluated their position with sufficient rigor. Admittedly, neither did I until I started to follow the thread.
I think posters like @mostro, @YWTF, @DemonTree, @RickJay, among other have expressed legitimate concerns about some trans activism and politics which I will not try to summarize because I don’t want to mischaracterize their positions and if you really want to know what they are then I’m afraid you’ve got a long heavy slog ahead of you. I suggest you pour yourself a double before you dive in.
Finally, on this topic, my position is that it’s NOT… and I hate myself for using this specific language… my place as a privileged white cis hetero male (ugh!) to dictate to women who should or should not have access to their private spaces and their athletics and their selective preferences of sexual partners, etc…etc…etc… Honestly. It’s complicated. I wish I had an easy and simple answer for you.
I think people parrot woke opinions on a variety of topics and don’t take much time to look at the details or down stream impact. I got called out by some posters in a thread way back (you among them, I believe) for saying that an angry protester ought not have been advocating for burning down the Target store in her neighborhood. I understood her anger and frustration and wasn’t suggesting that somebody needed to get in her fact to argue with her. But I stood by the conclusion that her reaction, while understandable in the moment, was the wrong message to send to her community. I’m not going to re-litigate this with you. I’m just using this as an example of the woke-effect that was so eager in supporting what I am almost sure would be a message she would likely reconsider at a later time. Call it a nut-pick if you want. It seems your de-rigueur dismissal of all my arguments on this subject.
Nope. My words represent my viewpoint at this point in time.
S’funny - I’m woke (and proud of it) and I don’t align with those opinions at all. Guess I must not be as woke as I thought.
Or, you know, you could be talking bullshit. It could be either.
You continue to write ridiculous things. I drove home on an avenue named after an enslaver, nearly passed a monument to a different enslaver, live near an elementary school named after a different enslaver, in a city named after a fourth enslaver. And you think someone’s skirt is gonna get me all freaked out?
Your idea that someone wearing a pop art skirt is, what did you say, the “tip of an ideological spear,” would be laughable, did it not bear so much resemblance to the fearmongering used by real-world fascists in the past.
Perhaps you are new here and have missed all the hyperventilating in the numerous threads concerning flags, statues, and red hats which the woke and triggered encourage lawlessness and violence in response to? So out of consistency I’d expect a little hyperventilating when presented with the imagery of one of the most if not the most prolific mass murderer in history.
I guess the modifier ‘pop art’ makes it all good though? An Andy Warhol swastika print would make a swell avatar in it’s ironic pop artistry would it not?
I mean, the skirt is pretty clearly silly, in a way that a monument to Lee isn’t. I’m able to see the difference. Also, for you to call complaints about Confederate monuments “hyperventilating” when you’ve suggested leftists literally want to murder Idaho babies? That’s absolutely wonderful, and is the death of satire.
Those are positions that I disagree with. But anyway, that’s neither here nor am I there.
and I agree with this, completely, it is not my position to dictate anything like that. However, I felt that, as a privileged white cis hetero male I was also not allowed to have an opinion.
You know the POV that was not represented in that thread? That of transwomen. We used to have a very articulate and informed person on this board who I would say could speak well for the motives and goals of the transrights activists, but she was driven from this board by exactly the intolerance and toxicity that was pervasive there.
I actually brought that person up in the first place. And I would say that the problem is foundational, in that you misunderstand what she said. She was not advocating burning down the Target. She was observing that it had been burned down, and explaining why that happened.
As I said in that thread, it’s like we are blaming the weatherman who is standing in the hurricane to tell us how bad it is. She’s out there, in the rain, telling us about the conditions that led to this disaster, and we’re in the comfort of our homes tsking her for not doing something to stop it herself.
I actually think that, while her reaction was emotional, it was not irrational. Understanding what she said, and why she said it, would be something that someone who is “woke” would do. Dismissing her as part of the problem, rather than a very relevant piece of information as to what the fundamental problems how our society is crumbling, how it is not working for a large segment of our population, is what those who fight against “wokeness” tend to do.
When irrational zealots get in power, historically speaking, atrocities have been the rule.
People use Hitler satirically all the time, all over the internet. It’s happening in the Pit as we speak. If you can understand why Hitler freaking out over the lack of backwards compatibility on the PS4 is not a call to murder the creators of the PS4, or you can laugh at The Producers, you can understand that not every depiction of a monstrous world leader is a call to action, or even serious.