AMEN Lass! I totally agree. I used to work at a newspaper and would haveto edit the births column, which listed the names of the mother, father and child. Not to mention the disturbing fact that most of the parents were not married to each other (judging by different last names, since most women change their name)…the vast majority of women gave their child the last name of the man!
This sucks!
Hell no, if I was unmarried and had a child (which I never hope to be), why should that child get the man’s last name??? I just don’t get it. Why would a woman allow that?
Wake up. She doesn’t have to, she wants to. Comparing that to a burqa in a fundametalist Moslem society is off the mark. Why can’t you accept that some women want to change their names. It’s just a few letters. How does fairness enter into it?
Honestly, I don’t even think of taking on my future husband’s name as giving anything up. Not family identity, not sense of self. I know who I am. I know who my family is. It doesn’t make me any less myself or my family any less my family if I take on my husband’s name. I don’t think I’m brainwashed (but then the insane don’t think they’re insane, so maybe I am - brainwashed, not insane).
Of course, his name is not going to be my last name - it’ll be my middle name. I always wanted a middle name - my Mom said she and Dad couldn’t agree on one, so they just didn’t give me one. Anyway, it’s impractical to have my fiancee’s last name as my last - people already have problems pronouncing my current last name. He has a very difficult last name compared to mine.
But if I decide not to change my last name because it’s easier on society, is society oppressing me? Tee hee…
I do understand your argument, though. And our children will likely not get my fiancee’s last name. Too bad we couldn’t decide upon a separate last name together. I mean, when you get married, you’re doing two things: joining someone else’s family (bride joins groom’s; groom joins bride’s), but you’re also creating your own family. Interesting. You’ve definitely given me food for thought…
Here is another perspective you might want to think about:
I’ve read some quotes from Muslim women who think that western women are “brainwashed” to believe that they must expose themselves to the gazes of strange men in the street.
I think the burqua is a bit extreme to say the least, but I see women all the time who wear headcoverings or garments that cover all but the face and hands. I realize that they would be subject to ostracism ior worse in some countries if they failed to do so, but here in the U.S. they must certainly know it’s not required.
It is not my business to tell some other woman that she should not wear a veil or a headcovering any more than it is her business to tell me I should do so.
Similarly, if a woman wants, for whatever reason, to change her name to her husband’s, what business is it of anyone else’s?
As to what she “gets in return,” well, that’s her business, too, isn’t it? Maybe she gets a good feeling of union. In any case, marriage is NOT about making sure everything comes out even. It often doesn’t, except in fairy tales.
I think when making this argument you have to specify what the alternative is, especially for the kids. If you want no-one to change their name and kids to be named after the mother, ok, but it needs thinking about. Hyphenating works for one generation
FTR, I don’t know what I’ll do if I marry, but whatever anyone else does is ok by me. Though, I do think it’s often convenient, (and thus should be considered, but not adhered to rigidly by any means), to have one last name, and possibly the husbands, because that’s what people currently expect, so you don’t have to go the rest of your life saying ‘yes, I am his father’ or whatever. Of course, this’ll have to be changed at some point, but I can’t stand up for everything myself.
Another suggestion: both names get passed on somehow. Eg. mother’s surname to girls (or boys) and fathers to the other. Or alternate. Or choose randomly.
Or: Hyphenate once, by gender. So, say, I’m Shade Adams-Bridges and I marry Jane Allen-Bright our children are Adams-Brights. And our sons’ children will be Allen-something and our daughters’ be something-Bright. Thus the surname of the children will be deducible from that of the parents, most names’ll get perpetuated, but no surnames’ll get too long.
I don’t know what gay, lesbian, or polygamous families’d do though
My experience is that some women choose take the husbands’ name because their mothers would freak if they didn’t.
I would never ask a woman to change her name. I also wouldn’t ask her NOT to change her name because (again in my experience) it would get thrown back at me as evidence that I was uncomfortable with the commitment of marriage. I mean, as long as she has her own name I can still pretend that she doesn’t own me. And she wants me to acknowledge that she does own me and therefore needs to assume my name. Kinda like licking your own cup so that no one else will try to drink from it. “He’s all mine, girls; back off, get your own husband.”
Therefore, she can do what she damn well wants as long as she makes up her own mind and doesn’t demand that I make the decision just to prove I love her. Change it? Fine. Don’t change it? Fine. Can we pleeeeeze go to sleep now?
No, you wake up. It is not just a bunch of letters. It’s a family. It’s an identity.
I have no problem accepting it if someone hates their last name and wants to change it. But I really think women today who change their names are, for lack of a better word, “brainwashed.” They say they want to, will swear up and down that they want to. But have they stopped to consider what they are really doing? Allowing themselves to follow a “tradition” that is born out of the idea of women as property? If they allow this, then they are just following along with the way society wants women to act: as subordinate to their husbands; as property or as objects (baby making machines?). You will disagree with this, I am sure, but the fact that women take their husband’s names is all the evidence I need.
There are many things that are considered “tradition” that are just considered antiquated now. I think this is one of them.
And just because it is a “tradition” doesn’t mean women don’t have the right to question and challenge it.
Because nearly all of them either want to or don’t really care that much. Simple as that, really. As far as I know, there is no law saying that a woman must take the name of her husband. Therefore, this is something they are doing by choice.
Can I get a cite or two for all of this? I hear this sort of thing quite often but never have I had it adequately explained to me why this is true.
Is it really misogynistic if it is done by choice?
She doesn’t have to. Nobody has to. However, I think it’s a good idea for parents and children to share a last name, since it creates a sense of unity. Personally, I don’t care if the man gives up his last name or the woman gives up hers, or even both give theirs up and come up with something new, but I think there’s a good reason for a basic family unit to share a family name. (I’m not saying that such a thing should be enforced by law, only that I think it’s a good idea.)
Because they want to. I know that’s not much of an answer, but I think in the large majority of cases it’s true. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that most women probably don’t care about this issue quite to the extent that you seem to. That’s their choice, and I don’t think it’s right to say that they should be upset the way you are.
I mean, unless you really think that the practice is itself harmful (and no just a vestige of past harms), then I don’t understand where you’re coming from on this.
Translation: women don’t know what they really want or when they are really oppressed. If they disagree with me then they’re deluded.
Generally speaking I would agree that many things are outdated. Whether a specific thing is outdated is largely dependent on the culture of a given area.
Of course. Women have the opportunity to try and change things in society that they find displeasing. I don’t think anyone in this thread has said anything to the contrary.
birdgirl, not to be antagonistic or anything, but why is this such a big issue with you? It’s an individual decision made by a consenting adult. No husband is holding a gun to his wife’s head demanding she change her name. If he is, he’s a dumbass who needs a swift kick to the head.
When you get married, you can make whatever decision you want about your last name, just like every other woman. Personally, I don’t care whether my future wife decides to take my last name. I do think it is a nice, loving gesture, but it’s not a condition for marriage.
But plenty of women do challenge it, and no one bats an eye. Just as some Muslim women wear head-coverings, and some don’t, and no one bats an eye. Since women do have a choice, there’s no reason to be angry if they pick the choice you don’t like.
There are also a LOT of things that are more important to get upset about. There was a time when if a woman didn’t take her husband’s last name she was thought to be a little strange. Nowadays, especially if the woman already has a professional reputation, she will continue to use her birth name in that context and nobody thinks much about it, really. In the “olden days,” of course, women generally were not welcome in most professions.
If you need a cause to fight, try working with women who have been abused or abandoned. Find a shelter and help those who need it. This would be a much better use of time than ranting about women who LIKE having the same name as someone they love.
Now wait a minute. How do you know they weren’t married? Why couldn’t they have just not changed their name, exactly as you are hoping women will do? It just doesn’t make a lot of sense to me that you’re jumping to conclusions about people you don’t even know. At least some of them are likely to have been married and not changed their names.
Anyway I use both mine and my husband’s name. I like how they go together better than either alone (my own name is pretty goofy anyway). For a long time, I used only my own name at work. But together, we’re a family and I do like the unity thing–not that it matters one way or the other, really. Mr. genie did not care what I did with my name. People in general tended to assume that I had changed my name and called me accordingly, so it is a bit easier to go with the flow.
Not one of the things I’m going to get worried about; there are far more serious problems facing women in this world.
Or you can do what my cousin did; they combined their last names. No, not hyphenation-- anagrams, baby! They just plunked their last names into one of those anagram generators, and picked out the name they liked best. The way they saw it, everybody won, no one lost. YMMV.
I undertand what Birdgirl is saying, I think. Thing is, I see the whole taking-his-name tradition the same way I see Christmas. I’m atheist and the whole religious aspect just goes whooshing past me. I celebrate the holiday as a reminder of the importance of family and loved ones. I’m secure enough in what I believe, to not let my fun be derailed by a quaint old custom.
I personally plan on taking my husband’s last name, if/when I get married. My mother kept her last name, and my father kept his, and I got stuck with a long, hyphenated, frequently mispronounced last name. Taking my husband’s last name would get rid of the need to deal with my current disliked last name.
When I married, I changed my last name for several reasons:
Disliked my own last name. In fact my own father urged me to change my last name away from his name, because it is so clunky.
Unity. I believe that having the same last name has made me feel more a part of a “unit” with my husband and daughter. Also with my in-laws, who are an important part of my family now.
Tradition. I am a bit of an old-fashioned traditionalist, and am glad to adhere to old styles and ways. Hubby and I didn’t shack up before marriage even. We were known to bump uglies every now and again though.
Identity. Maybe this makes me into a brainwashed puppet of the mysogonistic dominant culture, but I do actually feel like a different person than who I was before I married. Not entirely and not in a negative way, but my priorities, some of my goals, many of my hopes and dreams for the future, and my perspective on local and world events fundamentially changed after I got married. So Maidename is symbolic of who I was, and Marriedname is symbolic of who I am now. ::shrug:: Make of that what you will.
Don’t get me wrong - the actuall changing of my name (calling credit card companies, dealing with the SS card) was a major double-plus class A drag.
And I’m actually not unaware of the purported history and ramifications behind the tradition of name changing. My mom is a lesbian feminist psychologist. I went to a woman’s college. I minored in women’s studies fer chrissakes.
Finally I believe that while things may have started for one reason, the symbolism can fade to the point where it no longer can be said to apply. Who here thinks of swords and defending oneself when shaking hands? Yet that is why we extend our right hands when greeting someone, yes? (Hmm. Maybe I shoulda looked that up to see what Cecil has to say about it…still I think my point stands.)
I’m beginning to think that the reason most women change their last names is that they don’t like any of the other opitions!
That’s what I’ll probably do. I want us to have the same family name, because we will be a family. I don’t want to hyphenate because I think our names sound funny together. Deciding on a new name is out of the question because of our families. If I liked one of the other alternatives I’d probably go with it. Anagrams could be interesting…
This is the problem right here, birdgirl. I do not consider my last name to be my identity. Most people don’t. I don’t even like my last name, and I would take my wife’s last name if we both liked it better.
Basically, you seem to be saying that because you consider your last name to be your identity, everyone has to.
Actually, your view that people are defined by their last names is the most “antiquated” idea in this thread.
