I want to clear up something that I said in the past regarding pre-mortal intelligences, as I thought was LDS doctrine. Apparently, the idea that before we were pre-mortal spirits we existed as “intelligences,” co-eternal with God, is not undisputed within the membership of the LDS church or its prophets and leaders. Here’s an excerpt from a web site about Mormonism:

I just wanted to make sure that I wasn’t teaching false doctrine by declaring that the doctrine of these “intelligences” was an iron-clad Mormon teaching. For further reading from the same article, go here: Intelligence

I don’t know nearly as much as I think I know. (g)

God Snark,I’m glad youre still with us. I miss your wonderful postings,but we need another narrow-minded poster to come forward and give you a run for your money.You were always in fine form with arg.

This appears to correspond to the Scholastic (medieval Catholic philosophy) distinction between body, soul, and spirit. I am ill-equipped to try to define that any better than “you know what I mean,” however. PM? Tom?

Orangecakes: Thanks for the compliments. :slight_smile: The reason I don’t post as often as I used to is, I’m having to use my Dad’s computer, which is always in demand by my siblings, parents, and the in-laws. I’m lucky if I can get a half-hour online session in edgewise!

I miss ARG too. I hope he comes back someday (hmmm…ARG’s Second Coming?)

You realize only a Latter Day Saint could say that without being blasphemous? :wink:

Snark!!! Glad to see you! Hell, I sure missed you around here…although I agree with OC - we need another ARG to draw you back out… < grin >

Polycarp: Huh? Was what I said blasphemous to you? If so, I apologize.

Falcon: Even with another ARG, I wouldn’t get online nearly as much. I had my computer in my own room, where I feel most at home, so I was on a lot. That computer is broken now, so I use the one on the main floor. This is very uncomfortable to me, to be around others for any long period of time.

And just so this thread doesn’t get moved to the MPSIMS forum:

I think the OP is full of it. Intelligences are great, man. Why, I think intelligences really did exist as free agents before becoming spirit children of God, because that explains the idea that God is not responsible for creating human evil.

Lemonade…10 cents
Snakes…50 cents

Snark…we warned you about apologizing so much!! Stop it, or we’ll have to… Well…
Anyway, the whole point of my little one-liner (didn’t you notice the winking smiley?) was that the Second Coming term is reserved to Jesus by us former-day-saints (or whatever generic you want to use for non-Mormon Christians – you know, the guys with only one book that Dr. F. says you gotta watch out for :)) but would be appropriate for ARG under the eternal progression thing. And don’t you think that would upset him! :slight_smile:

Polycarp: Yes, I saw your winky. (Something tells me I should have put that another way…) I just didn’t understand why you said that only the LDS wouldn’t call that blasphemy.

In LDS theology, the term “Second Coming” refers to Christ’s return to Earth. No one else is designated with that term. Sure, it’s possible to become a god, but only Jesus has the “Second Coming,” not all the righteous people. So my joke, although I didn’t consider it blasphemous, was just a joke, without any significant meaning. :slight_smile:

Lemonade…10 cents
Snakes…50 cents

Er, that should be, “So my joke, which I didn’t consider blasphemous, was just a joke…”

While still others think that the concepts of disembodied “intelligences” and “pre-mortal” existences are fairly silly.

(Just so that, you know, we can make this a Great Debate thread instead of a let’s-see-how-many-misunderstood-posts-we-can-make-that-aren’t-germane-to-the-topic thread.)


We probably could. But I’m curious why Bill was looking at my winky!! :wink:

Seriously, the whole idea of the matter-soul-spirit dichotomy would be a fertile area to inquire into, and AFAIK hasn’t been tackled in a thread here yet (just *knowing[/] the next post will be a link to a three-month-old thread that went there part way through!). I gather that David’s position is totally naturalist/mechanist from his comment in the download-yourself-onto-a-computer-and-be-immortal thread. Bill, what distinction do you draw between the “premortal intelligence” and its “spirit body”, and do you see any differentiation between that and the non-LDS soul/spirit concepts?

One final question addressed at the non-theists: Does the existence/not of God equate to the existence/not of a “soul” or other immaterial component of humanity? I.e., can you have one without the other, in your view?

Polycarp: The way I understand LDS doctrine as far as intelligences/spirits go, the spirit body is an organization by God of the “intelligence” (or intelligent matter?) into a more refined and complex state of matter. Whether intelligences had self-awareness and free agency before they were organized into spirit bodies is unknown. Mormons believe that we existed as spirit children of God for a long, long time before we ever came to earth to be tested. AFAIK, the spirit has basically the same meaning to the LDS as to other Christians, except for the belief that the body will be reunited with the spirit in the resurrection, immortal and (for most) glorified with some degree of glory, never to be separated again.

Athiesm simply means a lack of belief in God, nothing more. Many Buddists could be considered atheists, yet they believe in reincarnation. You could certainly believe in a soul (or psychic powers, miracles, etc) and not believe in God.

I personally have not seen sufficient evidence to lead me to believe in a soul, and even less for a soul that exists beyond our physical death. It would be nice to know that I would never truly die but it does not seem realistic. My immortality will be limited to the effects I have on the people I leave behind, and the only literal pieces of me that live beyond my death will be in the bodies of whomever gets my donated organs. And those, too, will die.

“Happiness is nonetheless true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love lose their value because they are not everlasting.”

  • Bertrand Russell

I believe in Miracle Whip.

Although I’d never eat anything made with the stuff.

I believe in the Bible.

After all, I’ve seen several of 'em.

I’d just like to remind whoever is reading this thread once again that a lot of what I’ve said is speculation and conjecture and is not to be considered solid LDS doctrine.