How do the risks compare? Just so we all know.
Do you really expect me to bite?
I guess you do.
What does one gain by knowing about the risks associated with one group’s behavior versus another?
If a guy is going to be scolding women for having children later in life, they need to also be scolding guys who do the same thing. It doesn’t matter how the risks compare. Both groups are engaging in risky behavior.
That was my point. In your attempt to score some kind of point, you’ve let it fly right past you.
First of all slavery never ended,the name just changed. the 13th amendment stops (involuntary ) not voluntary servitude. The 14th amendment makes you a (Washington D. C. Citizen (first) and a state citizen second. There was no (Washington D. C. citizen) before. These two amendments paved the way to make all citizen slaves of the U,S.A. turning your rights that you were born with into privileges that the state gave you but can take away at any time and for any reason. As for you president quote this is a republic and president dictator, but give it time, people like you will give your freedom away and government will gladly take it from you. As for you marriage quote the trouble is in the civil state marriage contract it’s self. The state makes all the rule of the contract and the boy and girl have no say in it but (I DO) It was and is the states purpose to destroy the countries old government first, then foster in big brother and the one world government.
Sweet! Star Trek Federation, here we come!
I disagree. Probably because I will shortly be married, and hopefully have at least one baby before I turn 30 in 4 years. 
It’s so exciting! Most of my friends around my age who have already reproduced seem to be enjoying the experience immensely, more so of course if they have a husband father around consistently.
It all depends on what you want. I was over drinking, ‘going out’ and the dating scene before I even really go started. I think I was born old and boring, though I try to branch out occasionally it never lasts longer than 6 months.
I haven’t let a damn thing fly past me. When you’re talking about “risky behaviour”, it’s meaningful to know the extent of risk. If something I do has a one in a million chance of seriously harming me, I should certainly give the risk due consideration, but it’s not in the same league as something that has a one in ten chance, especially if the harm in the latter case is meaningfully greater as well as orders of magnitude more likely.
So let’s talk about the risk and discuss what the implications are for late fatherhood versus late motherhood, because gee whiz, the last thing I would wish for would be that you – in your attempt to score some kind of point, and have something to scold guys for – have attempted to pass off a small risk as functionally equivalent to a large one. We’re all adults here, and if I were annoyed with someone for treading dog shit into the carpet I sure as shooting wouldn’t let them get away with saying “Well, you dropped a candy wrapper, so you can’t talk!”.
Since you think there is something to be gained by comparing male/female risks re having “late” children", why don’t you do the research and report back to the class on it? Because I’m not going to be feeding your make-believe interest in this area. Sorry.
But msmith is making a good point. The idea of delaying marriage and kid into your 30s (or later) is certainly not unique to women. One of my old boyfriends just married for the first time - at 44.
And it isn’t just the partying - another male friend delayed marriage until 35. He finished his bachelors - worked for a few years, got his PhD - which seems to always take long to finish than you think - and then married. My cousin married after he finished his masters and got an MD and finished his residency, he did married during his low paying fellowship. My sister married this summer - her second, but his first - they are both in their late 30s and as romantic as it sounds for him to say “he never met the right girl before now” - in reality he was going to school and establishing himself in a successful career - traveling a LOT for work. Relationships weren’t a priority.
Since you’re the one who piped up with the spectre of male risk in the first place, and now are not only reluctant to back it up with facts but actively hostile to me for daring to ask, I think we can all draw our own conclusions as to who’s debating honestly and who’s making believe. If you had facts that proved you right you would not be slow in presenting them and showing me demonstrably in error - if, indeed, I’d actually said anything so mean as “You’re wrong”. All I asked was that you cite your position. Sorry, I shouldn’t do that round here.
We return you to your regular schedule of people talking past each other.
What’s so superior about having children in the middle of your working life rather than when getting educated? I’d say that having children while getting educated is often a much superior choice than to put them off till after finishing the university and starting on a working life. Studying is generally much more flexible than being employed and it is often a very bad idea to take off longer periods of time right after finishing education and then you can tell say at interviews that you already have the children you’re having, etc. Plus the body recuperates much quicker at 22 than at 32 or 42. etc. Anyway you can all do what you like as you don’t expect me or society in general to support your choices. The problem with single motherhood is that it is often merely substituting the father for the state by pushing the burden of paying for the child away from the father and on to the state (and men in general, since they are the only net income for the state). The latter may be more of a problem in Europe than in the USA.
I know you and your posting history. Your question is not a sincere one, but some attempt to play gotcha.
You are the one who thinks it is relevant to the discussion to compare risks. I do not. If someone is scolding women about how risky it is for them to go speeding around on mopeds late at night, it is not wrong for me to say, “Hey, it’s also risky for males to do the same thing.” I’m under no obligation to answer a dumbass question like, “Who’s at more risk, huh?” I do not have the answer to such a stupid question, nor do I have the time or interest to find it.
You are a smart fella. So I’m asking you to answer your own question. Obviously you think it’s pertinent to the thread somehow and that the answer is something we should all find interesting. And FYI, I wasn’t the one who first mentioned risk in this conversation. Go back and read the thread to find out who did.
I know you and your posting history. Your objection is not a sincere one, but some attempt to play gotcha.
You are the one who thinks it is relevant to the discussion to mention the risks involved in older men becoming parents. Very well then, let’s have some facts. If someone is “scolding” :rolleyes: a person for rollerskating on the freeway, it’s a stupid counterargument to say “Yeah, well, driving on the freeway is risky too - you could have an accident even in a car” and it’s not a dumbass question to respond “Who’s more at risk, huh?”. The fact that you don’t have an answer to such a “stupid” question, nor the time or interest to find it, tells me that you aren’t interested in facts, only in tossing a random accusation in the direction of men who “scold” women.
…which, by the way, I haven’t been doing in this thread. So how 'bout you saving your indignation for those who have (once you’ve exhausted your indignation at me for daring to disagree with you)?
The problem with a lot of the studies on female age and risk of problems with the baby is that they haven’t factored out the age of the father. In fact, until recently, we were blissfully unaware that male age contributed anything to the health of the fetus. Considering that we live in a society where women have traditionally married older men and recent studies have found that older fathers were responsible for up to 50% of the rise in Down syndrome risk when the mother was also over 40, we definitely need to be as cautious of older males as we are of older females.
Older fathers are dangerous even for younger women.
Older male fathers are more likely to have children who suffer from dwarfism, schizophrenia, and autism, bipolar disorder and mental retardation amongst other conditions. These risks are not insignificant.
Part of why I married a younger man was to reduce this risk. As most women in our modern age don’t have more than three children, there is no reason to marry in one’s early to mid-20s, especially if you end up with a younger mate. Studies have also found that a longer a woman waits to get married up into her early 30s, the happier and longer lasting the marriage.
It is also incorrect that our current dating system is based on a biology where men cared primarily for youth and women primarily cared for resources. Amongst our primate cousins and HG tribes, resource acquisition is minimal. The reason females prefer hunters is not because the hunters are sharing the meat with their children (in fact, the meat is often shared before any copulations in order to acquire future copulations), but to prove that the male is high quality. High social standing is the most important factor, although looks and personality also matter a great deal. In our society, we have equated high social standing with high wealth acquisition and required women to be economically dependent on men. Now that women are becoming economically dependent, our society is heading towards egalitarianism. We’re on a rocky road there because our thousands of years of inequality. The easiest way to help this out would be to allow women to be both mothers and professionals. That is, generous maternity time. It will also help to give fathers more paternity time and for more men to pick up the slack when it comes to household chores and child care. Although my generation is much better than my father’s generation when it comes to chores and child care, every single man I’ve dated has needed help when it comes to taking care of the house. Even though my husband is much better around than house than most of his male friends, I still overwhelmingly do a greater percentage of the chores and cooking. I see a lot of my high powered female friends afraid of becoming the breadwinner and the housewife.
Basically, both men and women should be cautious of having children after 35. Women need to realize that gender egalitarism means that they shouldn’t only try to marry up and men need to pick up their slack and help out their partners more.
Sounds like the standard bad science you see in these studies that try to claim that men are all lazy and women do all the housework. They cherry pick what they call “housework”; men still tend to do more of the heavy and outdoor work like hauling away garbage, mowing the lawn, shoveling snow, walking the dog, and so on. But none of that is counted as housework in such a study - or counted at all. So of course women do more “housework” when you are essentially defining housework as “the work women are more likely to do”.
Clearly you didn’t bother to read the links.
And, as someone who currently does all of our chores, I would much rather take on traditional men’s work than traditional woman’s work. The traditional men’s work is less frequent.
This. Unless the women themselves have a real career, these relationships are doomed to fail. But those living hand to mouth (with “noble” if low paying careers) somehow seem to expect to be “taken care of”.
My other half sees this all the time in law school: driven women with messed up personal lives, seeing a law degree as the new M.R.S. degree.
I’ve been reading history articles on various royal arranged marriages, not too pretty, but then most didn’t know anymore than, married to establish family lines and having countries treat each other better.
My friend was in an arranged marriage at 19 (She’s Muslim.) She didn’t have this yearn for lust and several partners and partying and was expected to have children right after getting married. She has 3 kids now, and no expectations of “I need more than a good partner/good provider.” I sometimes think her parents quickly got her into the marriage so she wouldn’t be curious or try out the Western life. She was never in the throes of love with her man as she has stated, but he’s decent. I do recall an Oprah eppy where the only Indian guest I ever saw on her show was a wife who was in an arranged marriage and wanted more. There was no romantic love, but she really desired it.
I’m been amusing myself with this rather long thread based on one magazine article.
About the older moms, I don’t think there should be a stigma. Why? We are the heck living longer. In 1970, the average Social Security holder collected ONLY for 14 months., The average lifespan of a woman 100 yrs ago was freaking 48. Can you imagine, being preggers at 44, 45, and you only live long enough for the child to turn 3 back then? OMG, I just thought of As I Lay Dying------Spoiler Alert: where the mother was so easily replaced
About older fathers, one would think they had the money to supply nannies, governesses, etc. I.E. Larry King. Kelsey Grammer
The idea of a doting loving father is only a recent thing. Remember watching the Wonder Years? Or for the older readers here, remember living the Wonder Years?
Maybe marriage is simply obsolete with the fact one can be in a serious relationship without needing papers to make it “valid.” and that as mentioned, women don’t need to marry for status/money/property/children. I think of the Victorian married women I’ve read about, who were dang near miserable and couldn’t get divorced without AN ACT OF PARLIAMENT.
I think you misunderstand the concept of “average lifespan”, it includes those who die when children, and in accidents, most women who were alive at 44 had a lot more than four years ahead of them.
Threadjack, but is Kelsey Grammer really that old?
Surprisingly, no. Grammer began playing the fussy (and seemingly ancient Frasier Crane) when he was only 29. That makes him 56 today.
Excellent dinner party conversation: “Did you see the peer-reviewed study where they controlled for teh crazy?”