Is a synagogue the church for me?

[Malthus]

@Rand_Rover

OK, fine. Maybe I was wrong to describe Jews as “self-righteous,” but I still think it is odd to believe that the one god in the whole universe singled out your people for special obligations. If not self-righteous, that’s at least self-centered or jingoistic or something.

Also, don’t Jews believe that the Messiah will be Jewish (I’m pretty sure that’s correct). Do Jews believe that the Messiah will bring benefits to those who aren’t Jews (i.e., Gentiles who observe the Noahide laws, others?)? If both of the above are correct, then Jews get a fairly nice reward for being saddled with additional obligations–i.e., the guy that comes to save the world is one of them.

Finally, I also believe that plenty of members of other religious groups are similarly self-centered, so don’t think I’m singling out Jews.

There isn’t any united Jewish view on the messiah. Many Jews (Reform, Reconstructionist) do not believe in the existence of an actual messiah in the future.

Messiah in Judaism

Others, such as Conservative Jews, leave the question quite open. This is from the official Conservative Movement statement of principals:

Since no one can say for certain what will happen in the Messianic era each of us is free to fashion personal speculation. Some of us accept these speculations are literally true, while others understand them as elaborate metaphors… For the world community we dream of an age when warfare will be abolished, when justice and compassion will be axioms of all, as it is said in Isaiah 11: “…the land shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.”

Some Jews believe in Tikkun Olam - meaning, in essence, to perfect yourself (ethically) so as to serve as an example to others, thereby helping them to perfect themselves:

Tikkun olam

There are obvious parallels between the notions of Tikkun Olam and messianism - the notion of a “utopian age”, for example, either through a single entity (the messiah) or through ethical perfection.

In summary, it is not always obvious that being Jewish gives one much of a “bonus” through messianic speculation, given that large numbers of Jews either (a) do not believe in a messiah at all; (b) state that the messiah may simply be a metaphor for a utopian age; or (c) believe that this utopian age will come about, not through a “messiah”, but through ethical perfection and example.

[Dinsdale]

When we were researching potential churches to attend/join, we checked out a synagogue. Really liked so much of what they had to say, and really enjoyed our discussion with “Rabbi Bob.” But what queered the deal was when he answered our question that as liberal as they might be, belief in a god was pretty much required!

[DSeid]

@Dinsdale

When we were researching potential churches to attend/join, we checked out a synagogue. Really liked so much of what they had to say, and really enjoyed our discussion with “Rabbi Bob.” But what queered the deal was when he answered our question that as liberal as they might be, belief in a god was pretty much required!

Not for the Jewish members. (I’ve suspected several rabbis as closet atheists even.)

Malthus, that’s a different take (not saying wrong mind you) on Tikkun Olam from what I’ve always thought of it as - I’ve thought of it as the call for social action - sort of like the world was given to us “as is” and trying to make it more perfect is not the job of God but ours. Sort of like a skilled surgeon having his residents close up the case.

The Jewish concept of the Messiah is very different than the Christian one. But yeah, he is to be of the Davidic line and is to restore the Kingdom of Israel and bring peace. Generally a minor concept as is afterlife for that matter. What you do here and now for its own sake is the usual emphasis.

[Rand_Rover]

Well, the concept of “the Chosen People” has a lot more facets than I thought. Thanks for fighting my ignorance everyone.

Lest anyone think I am an anti-Semite, I just want to state for the record that I’m an atheist and fairly anti-religion, so I’ve got piles of :dubious: and :rolleyes: for all religious groups that claim specialness, not just Jews (to the extent they even claim specialness, which I realize is complicated).

[panache45]

For the record: I was raised Jewish (Reform), through high school, and I don’t recall even one discussion of a Messiah . . . nor of an afterlife, for that matter. It’s just not a big deal, except for people who have nothing better to think about.

[Randy_Seltzer]

@Rand_Rover

OK, fine. Maybe I was wrong to describe Jews as “self-righteous,” but I still think …

Just a general hint: you’ll usually be wrong, or at least off-base, to describe [group] as [adjective] unless [adjective] is, literally, a defining characteristic of [group].

Lest anyone think I am an anti-Semite, I just want to state for the record that I’m an atheist and fairly anti-religion, so I’ve got piles of :dubious: and :rolleyes: for all religious groups that claim specialness, not just Jews (to the extent they even claim specialness, which I realize is complicated).

It’s been pointed out above, but Judaism is more than just a religion. It’s also an ethnicity, and to some small extent, a race. Most antisemitism is targeted more towards the non-religious element of the class. When you paint Jews with a broad brush, people will presume more about you than if you painted, say, Protestants with a broad brush.

[GameHat]

@Sage_Rat

I did see that she didn’t believe in the divinity of Jesus. But at the same time she was saying that she wants to remain Presbyterian, to practice a faith based on the Golden Rule, and to be able to keep on using all the psalms and songs she already knows. That’s Christianity.

No, it is not.

@DSeid

The issue is obviously not that you want to pray with those who fit with your theological beliefs and perspectives as the differences between Judaism and Christianity are fundamental ones.

Yes.

Look, if what a person wants is a religious community that feels like a cultural fit, good for them. Personally, I would be extremely troubled by the whole “switch faiths to find a community I like”. Christianity and Judaism each make certain fundamental claims that are mutually exclusive. Sure, they share an historical background to a point and sure there’s a lot in common with them - but they can’t both be completely true, because they disagree on some pretty serious things.

If what you want is to worship in a comfortable place, no problem. Pick the temple/synagogue/mosque you like. But if you take the religion seriously, well, you should probably start with the religion you believe is true and then find a community from there. And if you don’t find any of them true, hell, start your own or just join a book club or something.

[Rand_Rover]

@Randy_Seltzer

Just a general hint: you’ll usually be wrong, or at least off-base, to describe [group] as [adjective] unless [adjective] is, literally, a defining characteristic of [group].

Just a general remark to your general hint: I was indeed positing that self-righteousness was a defining characteristic of all religious Jews qua religious Jews (and I have now reduced “self-righteousness” to “self-centeredness” or something as discussed above).

It’s been pointed out above, but Judaism is more than just a religion. It’s also an ethnicity, and to some small extent, a race. Most antisemitism is targeted more towards the non-religious element of the class. When you paint Jews with a broad brush, people will presume more about you than if you painted, say, Protestants with a broad brush.

Of course I am aware of that about Judaism. When I am talking about Judaism the religion, I would expect people who are not complete idiots to realize that I am talking about Jews qua religious Jews and not Jews qua ethnic Jews. If someone is born ethnically Jewish and is now a Mormon, then nothing I’ve written in this thread applies to them.

Anyone stupid enough to “presume” something about me based on this thread can go on presuming; the opinions of the mentally addled don’t hurt be a bit.

[DSeid]

Randy

1. Rand’s initial claim “Plenty of orthodox Jews are self-righteous and kind of obnoxious” is not untrue. Plenty are and plenty are not. As a general rule any highly insular observant group will contain a sizable number of self-righteous individuals … be they Christians, Muslims, Hindus, or Jews. It happens.

2. He has also been very good about admitting his statements slightly over broad brush and open to a better understanding of what “Chosen” means in the Jewish context.

[Malthus]

@DSeid

Not for the Jewish members. (I’ve suspected several rabbis as closet atheists even.)

Malthus, that’s a different take (not saying wrong mind you) on Tikkun Olam from what I’ve always thought of it as - I’ve thought of it as the call for social action - sort of like the world was given to us “as is” and trying to make it more perfect is not the job of God but ours. Sort of like a skilled surgeon having his residents close up the case.

The Jewish concept of the Messiah is very different than the Christian one. But yeah, he is to be of the Davidic line and is to restore the Kingdom of Israel and bring peace. Generally a minor concept as is afterlife for that matter. What you do here and now for its own sake is the usual emphasis.

Same concept, different degree of utopianism. For some, Tikkun Olam is just social action; for others, a way to literally inspire the utopian society into being.

But yeah, it bears mentioning that (unlike many forms of Christianity) in most varieties of Judaism the afterlife and messianism are both fairly minor notions, about which Jews are by no means all agreed - the major emphasis in Judaism is on day-to-day living.

[Malthus]

@Rand_Rover

Well, the concept of “the Chosen People” has a lot more facets than I thought. Thanks for fighting my ignorance everyone.

Lest anyone think I am an anti-Semite, I just want to state for the record that I’m an atheist and fairly anti-religion, so I’ve got piles of :dubious: and :rolleyes: for all religious groups that claim specialness, not just Jews (to the extent they even claim specialness, which I realize is complicated).

No worries.

The “chosen people” thing is much misunderstood, and that is hardly your fault - as you will see from the link below, at least one variety of Judaism (Reconstructionist) has at one point rejected it, precicely because it has the potential to be misunderstood as a form of ethnocentrism.

Jews as the chosen people

Reconstructionist Judaism rejects the concept of chosenness. Its founder, Rabbi Mordecai Kaplan, said that the idea that God chose the Jewish people leads to racist beliefs among Jews, and thus must be excised from Jewish theology. This rejection of chosenness is made explicit in the movement’s siddurim (prayer books).

For example, the original blessing recited before reading from the Torah from contains the phrase “asher bahar banu mikol ha’amim”; “Praised are you Lord our God, ruler of the Universe, who has chosen us from among all peoples by giving us the Torah.” The Reconstructionist version is rewritten as “asher kervanu la’avodato”, “Praised are you Lord our God, ruler of the Universe, who has drawn us to your service by giving us the Torah.”

In the mid-1980s the Reconstructionist movement issued its Platform on Reconstructionism. It states that the idea of chosenness is “morally untenable”, because anyone who has such beliefs “implies the superiority of the elect community and the rejection of others.”[14]

Not all Reconstructionists accept this view. The newest siddur of the movement, Kol Haneshamah, includes the traditional blessings as an option, and some modern Reconstructionist writers have opined that the traditional formulation is not racist, and should be embraced.[15]

An original prayer book by Reconstructionist feminist poet Marcia Falk, The Book of Blessings has been widely accepted by both Reform and Reconstructionist Jews. Falk rejects all concepts relating to hierarchy or distinction; she sees any distinction as leading to the acceptance of other kinds of distinctions, and thus leading to prejudice. She writes that as a politically liberal feminist, she must reject distinctions made between men and women, homosexuals and heterosexuals, Jews and non-Jews, and to some extent even distinctions between the Sabbath and the other six days of the week. She thus rejects idea of chosenness as unethical. She also rejects Jewish theology in general, and instead holds to a form of religious humanism. Falk writes:

The idea of Israel as God’s chosen people…is a key concept in rabbinic Judaism. Yet it is particularly problematic for many Jews today, in that it seems to fly in the face of monotheistic belief that all humanity is created in the divine image - and hence, all humanity is equally loved and valued by God…I find it difficult to conceive of a feminist Judaism that would incorporate it in its teaching: the valuing of one people over and above others is all to analogous to the privileging of one sex over another."[16]

Reconstructionist author Judith Plaskow also criticises the idea of chosenness, for many of the same reasons as Falk. A politically liberal lesbian, Plaskow rejects most distinctions made between men and women, homosexuals and heterosexuals, and Jews and non-Jews. In contrast to Falk, Plaskow does not reject all concepts of differences as inherently leading to unethical beliefs, and holds to a more classical form of Jewish theism than Falk.

A number of responses to these views have been made by Reform and Conservative Jews; they hold that these criticisms are against teachings that do not exist within liberal forms of Judaism, and which are rare in Orthodox Judaism (outside certain Haredi communities, such as Chabad). A separate criticism stems from the very existence of feminist forms of Judaism in all denominations of Judaism, which do not have a problem with the concepts of chosenness.

[twickster]

Anyone else curious about what the OP is thinking at this point?

[DocCathode]

I’m as curious as Kipling’s elephant.

[Tracy_Lord]

I was laid up with food poisoning this weekend, so didn’t get to stick my nose into any services, but next weekend I plan to visit both a much more Reform-looking synagogue and my local Unitarian church to see how they feel, and chat with the leaders and congregation members.

I feel I should repeat that I have no strong feelings on Mr. of Nazareth, except that people who go around telling other people to be nice to each other are A-OK, and that the only certain theological conviction I have is “there is probably a God, and they love us and want us to love and help one another”. I decided to start looking at Judaism in the first place because, when I was growing up, most of the stories that resonated with me were in the Hebrew Bible (Ruth, Esther, Jael, Daniel), while the ones that I disagreed with and distanced me were in the New Testament (Paul).

@baronsabato

I would suggest checking out the United Reformed Church in England. Liberal/moderate Presbyterians, Congregationalists, and mainline Churches of Christ combined to form the URC, which is perhaps why you’re having problems finding a suitably liberal Presbyterian congregation.

The URC was one of the first churches I looked at over here, actually, because, like you said, it sucked up the UK Reform Presbyterian Church a while ago, but the teetotalism turned me off.

@Mr.Moto

Right. Forgive me for saying this, but I think you are approaching this in the worst possible way. You are putting your political values first and looking for a religion that can justify them, rather than trying to find a faith that fits your beliefs about the nature of God and his relationship with the universe.

I’m a bit confused by this, as I feel like I am trying to find a faith (or place of worship) that fits my beliefs about God &c, which are, “love and actions based on love are mandatory, and actions/good works are the most important part”. I got my political and social values from my church and my church community, and I’m now trying to continue along that path.

@DSeid

Tracy, I am still confused about what you are looking for.

<snip>

It seems that you are instead looking for a community that shares your interests in finding meaning in the Bible/Torah in a more abstract way (you’d like hearing and discussing the week’s Dvar Torah I suspect), and a commitment to social justice (Tikkun Olam).

Probably because I’m a bit confused about what I’m looking for as well! The bit I’ve quoted seems right, though.

Shayna, I really appreciate the story you told in your post – it made me think a lot.

@Locrian

If you can’t decide, there’s always macramé!

THERE’S HOPE YET.

I don’t think I’ll have anything more to say until I’ve checked out the services this weekend, but if anyone has more thoughts, I’m happy to hear them.

[Tracy_Lord]

Right, on Saturday morning I went to the Reform-est synagogue I could find in north London, and then on Sunday I tried out a Unitarian chapel in Hampstead.

Synagogue
Firstly, I totally should have done more research to find out what you’re supposed to do, because it sort of started out feeling as if I’d accidentally stepped into an anxiety dream, where the pages were all the wrong way around and everyone else knew the words but me. I was petrified that someone would turn around and try to speak to me, like the guy at the door did:

GREETER: Shalom Shabbat!
ME: …Hi!

And the bit where they brought the Torah out was terrifying, because everybody else was touching it in different ways (prayer book corners? prayer shawls? fingertips? WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO HERE), so I turned to the guy beside me, who had shuffled in twenty minutes late with a young woman.

ME: Uh, okay, I don’t know what to do?
GUY: I don’t know either! I’m Catholic! I came with my fiancee!

But on the plus side, the prayer books were really accessible once you got past the right-to-left issue, with English translations and phonetic version of the Hebrew all on the same page, so you could follow along really easily. And all the service leaders, three of which were women, were really cheerful and had sharp shawls. The head rabbi giggled through one particular section of the scripture that was very precise about some historical contract work that had taken place on the Temple, which was charming.

I liked the theology in the sermon a lot, which hammered the social justice, and I like the idea of Rituals You Do Because They’re Rituals as part of a worship service, except that these ones were nervewracking because they were so unfamiliar. Also that little voice going “CULTURAL APPROPRIATOR >:(” in my head. I definitely felt like an outsider, but no one was unfriendly or made me feel uncomfortable. (The rabbi made eye contact and smiled at me when I walked in, although I don’t know if that’s because I was new or because I probably looked terrified.) I did sprint for the door once the service was over, but I plan on going again next week, now that I have an idea of what to expect and do, and talking to somebody.

Basically, the content was absolutely what I am looking for. The form is very strange to me, but I like that it has such a strict form. I think I was too nervous about screwing up to appreciate it, and hopefully next week (I plan to go back) I’ll be able to get a better feel for it. I’m also planning to contact the rabbi this week to see what he has to say.

Church
This service also hammered the social justice pretty hard, but with hymnals that turned the right way and a structure I was familiar with. According to the woman I sat next to, the congregation was down about 50% because the annual member’s meeting was after the service, which is a kind of committed skiving I appreciate. The neighborhood around the church is very pleasant, and it’s right next door to the deli with the secret American-foods back room. There were at least a dozen people in their 20s there, and kids were running around in a very confident and safe way, which made me feel good about the community.

However, the spiritual parts of the service were inoffensive to the point of blandness. I appreciate that there are no absolute do-not-doubt-this beliefs, but that also means that there’s no imagery or a really solid feel of history and tradition. I know there is a strong Unitarian tradition, but it doesn’t come across: all the hymns we sang were post-1970 and the service felt like it lacked identity and self-confidence.

After looking at what I liked and didn’t like at each service, I think “BE NICE TO EACH OTHER RIGHT NOW” is the most important part of a faith for me, rapidly followed by “this earthly world is awesome” and “The Almighty wants everybody to enjoy ourselves”. But I like something more to hang onto – more specifics in the “awesome” and “enjoy ourselves”. And a firm holy text that says “HELP THE POOR AND OPPRESSED” and “PARTY NOW”. I like structure and I like a religion that requires action.

I felt more comfortable at the Unitarian service, because there was more active outreach to me as a new face, and possibly also because it didn’t require anything of me. I will probably go back next week as well.

Man, I am going to have some epically holy weekends until I sort this out.

[Dangerosa]

Unitarian congregations vary a lot from congregation to congregations. Ours is large (about 600 member families and probably twice that who aren’t members). We also have a strong musical tradition that includes having a full time music director. He has the choir - and sometimes the congregation - do everything from Beatles songs to Gregorian Chant (in Latin). We do tend to have a lot of spiritual parts of our service - a Day of the Dead celebration where the congregation is invited to light candles - hundreds of candles - in memory of those that have died. There is nothing that seems like lacking self confidence in the services we have - although sometimes identity is tough.

If you are comfortable there, you might want to give it a few more weeks. Some weeks our service is bland, other weeks it rocks. Our minister is on sabbatical right now, so from week to week we vary a lot - and even when she is there, she only speaks about half time with the times she doesn’t speak varying in quality. If after a few weeks you are still looking for something more spiritual, talk to the members there, they may say that the congregation a little farther out of the way has a reputation for a more spiritual service.

[Eureka]

I agree with Dangerosa–although I’ve never attended a Unitarian service.

But I’ve attended a number of services in United Methodist churches which were generally aimed at a “blended” service, meaninng a blend of traditional and contemporary music (and style and liturgical elements). While there have been exceptions, in many cases it’s not so much that any particular service will have both an obnoxiously upbeat contemporary Praise chorus and something written by Martin Luther (or Charles Wesley), but that over the course of time we sing some traditional hymns and some Praise choruses.

Of course, if having at least some traditional hymns is highly important to you, talk to the minister or to someone in the congregation and find out whether any given Sunday is typical. Maybe they do believe that the way to attract people is through blandness and contemporary music.

But if you speak to the minister (or even the members of the congregation) and explain what you are looking for, they may be able to direct you to a church which better meets your needs.

---

I will opt out of making suggestions with respect to the synagoague, on the grounds of REALLY being unqualified to do so, but I suspect that in a lot of ways the way to handle it is much the same as the way I would encourage you to handle my church–sure, maybe they aren’t urging their members to knock on doors and make disciples–but if you are quiet, respectful, curious and open-minded, I’m not sure why they’d be bothered by you.

[Shayna]

@Tracy_Lord

After looking at what I liked and didn’t like at each service, I think “BE NICE TO EACH OTHER RIGHT NOW” is the most important part of a faith for me, rapidly followed by “this earthly world is awesome” and “The Almighty wants everybody to enjoy ourselves”. But I like something more to hang onto – more specifics in the “awesome” and “enjoy ourselves”. And a firm holy text that says “HELP THE POOR AND OPPRESSED” and “PARTY NOW”. I like structure and I like a religion that requires action.

Heh. If that’s what you’re looking for, you ought to love Judaism. My boss has a saying about all the Jewish holidays (well, most – the High Holy days are exempt from this): ** They tried to kill us. We won. LET’S EAT!**

Purim is a great one for this.

@Judaism 101

In the twelfth month, which is the month of Adar, on its thirteenth day … on the day that the enemies of the Jews were expected to prevail over them, it was turned about: the Jews prevailed over their adversaries. - Esther 9:1

And they gained relief on the fourteenth, making it a day of feasting and gladness. - Esther 9:17

[Mordecai instructed them] to observe them as days of feasting and gladness, and sending delicacies to one another, and gifts to the poor. - Esther 9:22

. . .

According to the Talmud, a person is required to drink until he cannot tell the difference between “cursed be Haman” and “blessed be Mordecai,” though opinions differ as to exactly how drunk that is.

And of course we have a blast building our sukkah in the Fall. Every year we have more and more people over, because when they hear and see what fun it is, everyone wants to come!

Our sukkah building, 2006
Our sukkah building, 2007

We had 13 people for 2008!

And thanks for your kind words about my previous post. I’m very glad that it was helpful to you in some way.

Good luck stormin’ the castle!