Is civil war in Egypt averted? 90% yes for new Constitution.

[Marmite_Lover]

Morsi in his courtroom cage today on charges of conspiring with Hamas to break into Egyptian prisoners to free him and other MB leaders including the supreme guide Badie and Jihadists 28th January 2011

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1/1619074_261941120638803_1156380436_n.png

[Marmite_Lover]

Video of Morsi shouting at the judge in court today

- YouTube

[Marmite_Lover]

@Jonathan_Chance

Marmite Lover, it is explicitly against the rules of Great Debates to accuse another poster of lying.

I’m giving you an infraction. Please refrain in the future.

I appeal your judgement.

Again English comprehension seems to be a problem here. Either it is yours or mine in this case.

This is what the poster stated

Right, he was arrested for organizing a political protest, which is now illegal.

That post was a lie.
here is the post

example

Quote:
Right, he was arrested for organizing a political protest, which is now illegal.

This is a lie.

Now which part of what I said above deserves the infraction?

The answer I gave to the POST being a LIE? which it is. Would you like to argue that what I said is not true? That the post is not a lie? Please provide evidence to me that what I said about the post being a lie is not true.

Fair and just moderation please.

[Marmite_Lover]

After today’s assassination of the MOI aid in Haram

a reminder

Prominent “pro-Morsi” activist (co-founder of RASSD.com) saying that the next step is targeting police officers’ homes, military and judicial and business figures.

Just 10 days before a police General gets killed by “unknowns”.

Original tweet (before he deletes it): https://twitter.com/shesheny/status/424240165624631296

He later deleted the tweet. However he forgot to tell his followers to erase their responses to it: https://twitter.com/HennaSafy/status/424286664421167104

[Human_Action]

How was it a lie, exactly? Because pro-government protests are still legal?

[Dissonance]

@Marmite_Lover

2. He was arrested in November for leading a protest without permission or permit. Read your own article! he admitted it. He was proud of breaking the protest law. The same law you have in your country.

Right. Just like how you think the president being the commander in chief in the US and having a general as your president via military coup are the same thing.

[tomndebb]

@Marmite_Lover

I appeal your judgement.

Again English comprehension seems to be a problem here. Either it is yours or mine in this case.

This is what the poster stated

That post was a lie.
here is the post

Now which part of what I said above deserves the infraction?

The answer I gave to the POST being a LIE? which it is. Would you like to argue that what I said is not true? That the post is not a lie? Please provide evidence to me that what I said about the post being a lie is not true.

Fair and just moderation please.

You are free to point out an error that has been posted.
You are prohibited from calling a poster a liar or to say that a poster has lied.

Calling someone a liar is simply a way to shut down discussion and it is against the rules of this forum.

You are free to note that a statement is not accurate, providing evidence that it was in error, but you will not simply call it a lie.
The rule is posted as the very first sticky thread in this forum: Liars, lying, and lies in Great Debates - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board

[ /Moderating ]

[NotfooledbyW]

Bonapartism???!

The 18th Brumaire of Gen. al-Sisi in Egypt.

The anointing of al-Sisi as the candidate of the officer corps and his popularity with the Egyptian wealthy points to a similar configuration. He is a symbol of order and authority at a time when the foundations of society have been repeatedly shaken. But above all he is the great hope of the social classes that had gotten wealthy off the public sector and off of government licenses. They had been deeply threatened by the revolution. Al-Sisi’s function from their point of view is to continue to shore up the public sector companies, protect the wealth of the governemnt-tied entrepreneurs, and attract more foreign investment and Gulf rent.
So far, he’s been good at all that. Which is why the military and the “left-overs” of the Mubarak regime may make him president.
Egypt’s revolution has thus taken a hard right toward Bonapartism.
Whether there is a liberal Third Republic to be had after the decline of Bonapartism in a few years remains to be seen.

[Marmite_Lover]

@Human_Action

How was it a lie, exactly? Because pro-government protests are still legal?

you said

quote

“Right, he was arrested for organizing a political protest, which is now illegal.”

that is a lie
political protests are not illegal

[Marmite_Lover]

@tomndebb

You are free to point out an error that has been posted.
You are prohibited from calling a poster a liar or to say that a poster has lied.

Calling someone a liar is simply a way to shut down discussion and it is against the rules of this forum.

You are free to note that a statement is not accurate, providing evidence that it was in error, but you will not simply call it a lie.
The rule is posted as the very first sticky thread in this forum: Liars, lying, and lies in Great Debates - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board

[ /Moderating ]

error or deliberate lie? those are two different things

An error is when someone make a mistake.

A lie is when someone deliberately lies.

The poster should have provided the proof of his comment. He didn’t. Why? …

The thread is filled with his other ‘errors’ . What is that called?

[Marmite_Lover]

Morsi betrays Egypt and the Egyptians

Some of the details are being released about the charges Morsi faces in this trial.

Here is some of the information.

In an article that appeared in Al Watan on October 7, 2013,

Osama Khalid posts an interview he conducted with Major General Sherif Ismail, State Security Advisor for Sinai during President Morsi’s rule.

Major General Ismail’s position gave him access to highly confidential and classified information.

At one point, Ismail had no other option but to resign his position after realizing that working under certain conditions was a betrayal to Egypt.

The general starts off by commenting on the war on terror led in Sinai today. He says, “The fallout in Sinai today is the upshot of the missteps taken by the previous regime. Today’s operations are corrective measures to fix these missteps.” He then goes on to explain the calculated steps President Morsi and the MB took in Sinai.

**President Morsi, in an exclusive ruling for Sinai natives, released 580 prisoners who had served merely half their time. They were all sentenced in cases related to terrorism, arms trade, drugs, and insurgence. Although Ismail and the security apparatus voiced their concerns over Morsi’s intention to release these particular convicts, Morsi went ahead with the release.

Morsi allowed 50,000 Palestinians to apply for and receive the Egyptian nationality, but a more troubling route was Morsi’s culling of the police force’s ability to retaliate against those crossing into Egypt. This, according to Ismail, gave Hamas and other Palestinian extremist groups the freedom to maneuver in Sinai. “On a weekly basis, 350 Palestinians entered Sinai illegally via the tunnels. The president’s instructions were to let them return to Gaza without pursuing any legal action against them. That’s what we did regularly; we simply returned them to Gaza via the border crossings.”**

He goes on to explain how grave the situation had become. Allowing the Palestinians to cross into Sinai “was a national security issue—a direct violation of Egyptian authority.” Furthermore, Hamas stored weapons in Sinai and conducted training exercises for Palestinians and Bedouins there. Ismail also recorded joined training exercises with the Islamist groups from Gaza, those who originally had deep rifts with Hamas such as Al Jihad Al Islami, Geish Al Islam, and Ansar Bayt Al-Maqdis.”

Strangely, all these groups forgot about their differences and agreed on one principle: to create a terrorist and extremist state in Sinai. This is why **Hamas permitted them to travel through, on one condition, that they don’t conduct any operations from within Gaza against Israel. **Violence had stopped after Egypt brokered a deal between Israel and Hamas, allowing both to enjoy a long truce. And indeed all the groups began to train in Sinai turning it to a ticking bomb ready to explode at any given time.

Ismail continues:

We monitored three such camps in the areas of El Koraiya, El Moqattaa and El Gemeii. In Dahnia, from time to time, gunmen would participate in military parades and field training activities using heavy weapons, flexing their muscles, and establishing their statehood within Egypt; they were above the law. In Sheikh Zuweid, during such parades, group members would hold propaganda banners, sing inciting national songs, and shoot live ammunition in the air. Tunisians, Libyans, Sudanese, in addition to Palestinian participated in these camps.

However, the biggest issue is how the president and the presidency reacted when they were told about these aberrations. The presidency didn’t do much. In fact, according to Ismail, after the presidency received the information, it then disclosed it to the groups in Sinai so that they revised their approach and corrected their bearings to avoid similar pitfalls in the future. The presidency also refused conducting any operations against these groups.

When asked why the army or the police force did not react to such indiscretions, Ismail explained that the army did not act unless it was instructed to do so. The army did not work for itself neither did the police force. In fact, both forces had been subject to a plot to diminish their capabilities. For instance, the government had ignored requests for armaments, gear, and vehicles that were to be used to enforce security and pursue militants, and to protect the police units themselves. Restrained and unable to maneuver, the army and police force were incensed by the happenings.

**Ismail also confirmed that Safwat Hegazy, the MB leader, who visited Sinai often, played a critical role in the ground operations and the pipelines bombings [supplying Jordan and Israel with gas]. Mohammed Al Zawahry, a Salafi Jihadia group leader and the brother of Aymen El Zawahry of Al Qaeda was captured in Arish only to be released the same day by specific order. Also Ramzy Mowafi, Bin Laden physician, was spotted in the same area.
**
Major General Sherif Ismail resigned in protest to two particular incidents. One was how the presidency first aborted the Eagle Operation. [The “Eagle Operation” is an Egyptian counterattack against the perpetrators who assassinated 16 Egyptian soldiers in Rafah close to the border with Gaza].

Then, Morsi sent an envoy to the area. “The fact that Magdi Salem, other Islamist group members, and ex-convicts were among the envoy enraged Ismail and the security apparatus in Sinai as a whole. The envoy was not qualified to negotiate in the name of Egypt and excluded the armed and police forces.”

The second incident that outraged Ismail was when Khairat El Shater, the MB leader, established a company, “Palestinian Egyptian” in Cairo, on Abbas El Akkad Street, to oversee 70 tunnels crossing from Gaza to Egyptian territory giving him monopoly control over illegal routes in and out of Gaza. In return he was to ensure that the remaining tunnels were shut down.

That is when General Major Sherif Ismail resigned. He realized that his reports to the presidency were being utilized against Egypt instead of protecting Egypt. He could not continue to work for a regime working against his country.

He goes on to explain why Morsi outed Field Marshal Tantawi and General Mourad Mouafy:

Major General Mouafy had provided a dossier on the Islamists terror operations in Sinai reporting on the increase in the number of terrorist cells in Sinai and the spread of weapons, training camps, and Islamist courts. The reports also warned that Sinai had become a goal for terrorists who aim to settle there from all the Arab countries. When Mouafy revealed this implicating information, he was discharged.

Ismail also affirms that after the MB reached power, it tried to paralyze the security apparatus in Egypt. They retired 600 major generals from the police force and shrunk the role of state security, refusing to provide it with the necessary arms.

That is in addition to the meeting that took place at the Four Seasons Hotel between Khairaat El Shater and the Iranian leader of the Iranian National Guards so as to create a similar militia group in Egypt that would answer to the Muslim Brotherhood only.

The campaign to smear the image of the Intelligence Services was also in full swing. “According to Wassat Party leader, Abou El Elaa Madi, Morsi claimed that Egyptian Intelligence Services had recruited 350,000 thugs to wreak havoc across Egypt.”

The MB was working toward destroying the nation to build another nation that fit its dimensions, ideologies, and system.

**Ismail also presents a very implicating point: that after Morsi escaped from Wadi El Natroun prison, he went to Al Arish [in Sinai] where he stayed with the ex vice-governor, a MB member, Adel Qatamesh, then he headed to Gaza via the tunnels. When the dust settled, he returned to Egypt.

And Morsi wasn’t alone on this trip to Gaza. Defendants in the Hezbollah Case and the Espionage Case escaped to Gaza with Morsi. “Morsi entered Gaza with Aymen Nofal [the leader of Alqassam Brigades, the armed wing of Hamas], who coordinated with the MB office in Arish; Bedouins and Salafis who had stormed the prisons and the police stations assisted them to cross into Gaza.”
**
Proof that implicates Hamas is available. While 18 members of Alqassam Brigades [Hamas’s armed wing] were executing an operation in Egypt, they were captured. Their capture is documented and verified.

According to Ismail, the solution to the many issues threatening Sinai lies in a threefold plan. The short-term one is happening now in Sinai: reestablishing sovereignty, restoring security—seizing weapons, capturing terrorists, and shutting down the tunnels, and controlling border traffic. The goal is to achieve total control. Two other solutions must be worked on: the economic and the human development.

My take: what Sherif Ismail is saying here construes treason. At the start of the January Revolution, Egyptians were totally oblivious of all the happenings in Sinai; however, slowly the truth began to unfold. But when a major general uncovers and confirms the critical cataclysms that were taking place in Sinai, the situation leaves no room for doubt or second-guessing. The events that took place in Sinai are incriminating.

Thank God the Army and General Sisi stepped in when the Egyptian people demanded the ouster of the MB and Morsi.

To this date the USA still refuses to declare the MB a terrorist group!

[Jonathan_Chance]

@Marmite_Lover

you said

quote

“Right, he was arrested for organizing a political protest, which is now illegal.”

that is a lie
political protests are not illegal

And thus you end up with another infraction.

Internalize this: at no time is it allowed to accuse another poster of lying in Great Debates. Continue to do so and your posting privileges may be revoked.

Stop it.

[Captain_Amazing]

I don’t think anybody here really is pro-Morsi or pro-Muslim Brotherhood. A lot of people have a problem with the army overthrowing Morsi, but even most of them agree that Morsi and the Brothers were pretty bad.

[NotfooledbyW]

@Trinopus

NotfooledbyW: Actually, I’m far more on your side than against you. I generally agree that the military coup that ousted Morsi was the lesser of the two evils. A military government is better than a theocracy – in much the same way as you’d rather lose a foot than lose a hand.

I’m not against anyone who is interested in the events in Egypt and elsewhere in that part of the world. But it bugs me when some Americans have expectations that Egyptians somehow get to our standards for human rights and a democratic process within a year or three of the start of a revolution.

I have a personal sense that moderately religious, forward thinking Egyptians have the proper spirit and ability to overcome whatever hurdles the backward thinking fundamentalists put in their way. As part of that sense I have thought that majority rule may be a method that hinders more than helps those Egyptians who deserve a chance to build a better Egypt. The enabler to a democratic republic in Egypt therefore must involve the military and extraordinary measures to keep civil order during the process.

I appreciate your input. Indeed, we had some great founding fathers but also believe the Egyptians have a much more complex challenge ahead of them. Things were slower in 1776 and colonists had room to expand sustain themselves independently back then - except for the resistance by the natives who lived here first.

[NotfooledbyW]

@Marmite_Lover

Morsi betrays Egypt and the Egyptians

Thank God the Army and General Sisi stepped in when the Egyptian people demanded the ouster of the MB and Morsi.

Are you interested in knowing that our Secretary of State agrees with your sentiments?
!! 20 Nov 2013. … Kerry: Egyptian revolution ‘stolen’ by Muslim Brotherhood

Paul J. Richards / AFP. … Secretary of State John Kerry speaks at an international security forum at the State Department on Wednesday. By Catherine Chomiak, NBC News

WASHINGTON — U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said that the Egyptian revolution was “stolen” from the youth who started it by the Muslim Brotherhood.

“Those kids in Tahrir Square, they were not motivated by any religion or ideology,” Kerry told an international security forum at the State Department on Wednesday."!!

!!" It is not the first time Kerry has been critical of the Brotherhood and its actions in Egypt. In September, Kerry said the Egyptian military had been “restoring democracy” when it arrested Morsi this summer to quell worsening violence."!!

Read more: World News: Latest International Headlines, Video, and Breaking Stories From Around The Globe | NBC News

[Marmite_Lover]

@NotfooledbyW

Are you interested in knowing that our Secretary of State agrees with your sentiments?
!! 20 Nov 2013. … Kerry: Egyptian revolution ‘stolen’ by Muslim Brotherhood

Paul J. Richards / AFP. … Secretary of State John Kerry speaks at an international security forum at the State Department on Wednesday. By Catherine Chomiak, NBC News

WASHINGTON — U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said that the Egyptian revolution was “stolen” from the youth who started it by the Muslim Brotherhood.

“Those kids in Tahrir Square, they were not motivated by any religion or ideology,” Kerry told an international security forum at the State Department on Wednesday."!!

!!" It is not the first time Kerry has been critical of the Brotherhood and its actions in Egypt. In September, Kerry said the Egyptian military had been “restoring democracy” when it arrested Morsi this summer to quell worsening violence."!!

Read more: World News: Latest International Headlines, Video, and Breaking Stories From Around The Globe | NBC News

It took 5 months to finally say what we have been saying a very long time. BUT does Kerry agree the MB are terrorist org? That is what Egyptians want to know.

We’d also like to know why Obama keeps sending Mc Cain to Cairo to secure release of the MB in jail.

Here he is with his jihadist terrorist friends who wear AQ headbands. What piece of US supplied equipment is he adjusting on the terrorists shoulder?

You see these days we don’t believe a word that comes out of the USA. All trust went a long time ago. They are only words. Words are nothing unless backed up by actions. Declaring MB a terrorist org would be a first step. Second would be to declare Qatar a terrorist state since it is the main funder and safe haven of MB terrorists. Third would be to declare Qatari TV news channel a mouthpiece for the MB terrorist organisation which deliberately distorts the truth for the Western audiences. There are hundreds more things they could do instead of talk.

Below John McCain send by Obama to make sure that the US supported jihadists are not running low on supplies and moral support and funding. Captured with Jihadist AQ on camera.

[Marmite_Lover]

@Jonathan_Chance

And thus you end up with another infraction.

Internalize this: at no time is it allowed to accuse another poster of lying in Great Debates. Continue to do so and your posting privileges may be revoked.

Stop it.

Better than that

I will stop reading or wasting time replying to people who post ‘errors’

[Marmite_Lover]

@Captain_Amazing

I don’t think anybody here really is pro-Morsi or pro-Muslim Brotherhood. A lot of people have a problem with the army overthrowing Morsi, but even most of them agree that Morsi and the Brothers were pretty bad.

The problem Egyptians have right now is we are currently in a battle on the internet spending day after day correcting ‘errors’ as they have to be called here on this forum.

There is a massive campaign on right now naming foreign journalists who day after day misreport news and events which is being picked up by foreign audiences to be further spread on the internet. Many who base their articles on the same handful of Egyptian activists who sit in Zamalek cafes Tweeting utter nonsense.

Distorted lies spread throughout Egypt every single day!
Making statements that are clearly untrue to any person who wants to know the truth.
Anyone with any sense at all can easily find out for example that political protests are not illegal in Egypt. Foreign journalists make these insane statements and it infuriates Egyptians who are battling it. The errors spread and cover headlines as part of an agenda. They are not interested in truth. Thankfully though now we are making it a wider issue and hunting them down and exposing their errors.
When a foreign journalist Tweets a riot in my city at a busy location which is a lie because there is no riot, it ends up that stupid MB fools then go to that location and in enough numbers to then start a riot!!! This is very dangerous!!
This is what we are dealing with.

If I was to spend my time on the internet purely correcting ‘errors’ in response to statements made I would have no life left to live. Then the posters of the ‘errors’ win. There are not enough Egyptians with the time to respond to them all. Result the public are misinformed and actually believe the trash they read in their salons thousands of miles away. But me in Egypt living it daily should not have to prove anything to anyone. It’s not my job to educate others who are ignorant of events. I come here to try only. To show the other side. The side your TV doesn’t show you.

[Marmite_Lover]

Hamdeen Sabahi the main contender has been reported as saying the Tweet from his official spokesman is now inaccurate.

He has not decided on whether to challenge Al Sisi or not in the election.

My guess is he changed his mind after the massive support for Al Sisi last week all over Egypt. Also he lost massive support after he became a partner with Mohammed El Baradei in NSF. El Baradei was never recognised by Egyptians as anything more than US puppet. We were right. When the police cracked down on the MB and Raba’a he fled to his home in Austria and resigned as head of NSF. Now he collected his payment. He is packing up to take up his post in Tufts University USA. So much for the loyal Egyptian who barely ever set foot in Egypt :rolleyes:

I don’t think anyone can seriously hope to get votes over Sisi.

His posters now going up over New Cairo area

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t1/1551753_652314834825038_1548354255_n.jpg

[Alessan]

Don’t you think someone having someone run against Sissi is a good thing? I mean, from a checks and balances standpoint?