Is finding an adult young enough to be your child attractive disgusting?

[Grrr]

@elbows

Yeah, I don’t think your problem is the age of the ogled, to be honest. I firmly believe there is nothing wrong with appreciating beauty when you see it, regardless of age. That said, you’re a grown man and should not be overtly ogling women on the street. Regardless of their ages or states of dress.

See that’s the thing though. Where is the line between ogling and catching a glance?

To me, a glance is something that happens instinctively and you’re not really conscious of what your doing when you turn your head. It takes all of two seconds to become aware and correct the situation. But some would disagree…

[Thudlow_Boink]

@Grrr

See that’s the thing though. Where is the line between ogling and catching a glance?

To me, a glance is something that happens instinctively and you’re not really conscious of what your doing when you turn your head. It takes all of two seconds to become aware and correct the situation. But some would disagree…

“Looking at cleavage is like looking at the sun. You don’t stare at it, it’s too risky. You get a sense of it then you look away.” -Jerry Seinfeld

[kayaker]

@Procrustus

So, she’s 25 now?

Yep.

[Grrr]

@Thudlow_Boink

“Looking at cleavage is like looking at the sun. You don’t stare at it, it’s too risky. You get a sense of it then you look away.” -Jerry Seinfeld

Agree. But is it possible to not look in the first place?

[Hector_St_Clare]

@MandaJo

This is the sequence he’s suggesting:

At 20, a man marries a 40 year-old woman, fucks her like crazy, plays a minimal role in raising her kids, builds a career and divorces her at 40 to marry a 20 year old woman to have his own kids with. At 60, they divorce and he marries a 60 year old woman.

At 20, a woman marries a 40 year old man (who just divorced his now-60 year old first wife), has kids, raises them with that man, and divorces him at 40 to marry a 20 year old for the fucking. At 60, she divorces him (because he’s ready for a 20 year old to have his own kids with) and marries a 60 year old man who just divorced his 40 year old wife.

It all makes sense except it totally ignores human nature and emotions and the idea of forging a family. It rather reminds me of Thomas More’s Utopia, where he satirically suggested all families have the number of children leveled out by taking them from families with more and giving them to families with fewer.

I do think men should be especially careful not to leer at girls significantly younger than they. It’s embarrassing and uncomfortable to realize a man your dad’s age is imagining you naked.

I also think men who go out of there way to assert that they find young girls as a class highly attractive are creepy and weird. I work with a guy who endlessly shares barely-legal NSFW cheesecake on Facebook. I don’t think he’s wrong for finding any particular girl attractive, but I think it’s creepy as hell that he’s proud of the fact that he likes very young looking women and that he wants to make sure other people know this–it’s like he thinks it boosts his man cred. And he teaches high school, which makes it worse. I

In the same vein, if a group of men are talking about women they find attractive (as men sometimes do), I don’t think it would be cool to mention 18-20 year olds that were real people known by people in the group. It’s okay to think they are hot. It’s not okay to kind of offer them up to the group for sexual consideration (especially not if you do it a lot, with a lot of different girls).

You keep saying ‘creepy and weird’, but you don’t actually provide any evidence there’s anything wrong with it. I really like the idea of 40 y/o women dating 20 y/o men and vice versa, and think we’d be a much better off society if there were more of it going on. My general reaction when I see a much older man (or woman, there are some) with an 18-25 year old partner is that I mentally want to high-five them. And again, that goes for women, too.

18-20 would be my most preferred age range for dating/relationships, and if I’m attracted to someone in that age group I’m certainly going to mention their name, why wouldn’t I? I’m not particularly interested if you approve or not, since the law in this country (and pretty much most others) disagrees with you. My dating preferences also run exclusively interracial too (no interest in Indian women whatsoever), and I’m aware that some people disapprove of that. They’re entitled to their opinion, and I’m entitled to mine.

I think this is really symptomatic of a point of view among some people today that relationships should be about ‘equality’, in terms of (say) age, life experience, education, IQ, income, whatever, which couldn’t me more different from what I think is best & ideal.

[MandaJo]

@Lightray

How about if the women who were offended by his behavior spoke up for themselves? Instead of dragging an uninvolved man into the whole thing as though we’re back in Victorian times where the women are too delicate and need a MAN to handle all their problems.

Well, if we are specifically talking about an 18-year old girl being oogled by a strange man old enough to be her father (the situation outlined in the OP), then yeah, I think it’s a bit much to expect her to be like “Eyes up, grandpa”. Especially since she’s like 75% sure he’s oogling/25% chance he’s just staring off into the distance, thinking. But if it’s your friend, and you know he’s oogling because it’s a thing he does, say something.

In fact, in this thread when a woman did speak up when offended by the guy’s behavior, everyone chimed in with stories about the horror of jealous bitches and how they are glad they divorced the one they married.

[elbows]

That’s the thing, grown men CAN control their behaviour and the behaviour of their eyes and heads. It’s not instinctive, automatic or uncontrollable. And trying this as a defense for such behaviour always reflects badly on those who try, in my opinion.

[Reluctant_A]

@MandaJo

Well, if we are specifically talking about an 18-year old girl being oogled by a strange man old enough to be her father (the situation outlined in the OP), then yeah, I think it’s a bit much to expect her to be like “Eyes up, grandpa”. Especially since she’s like 75% sure he’s oogling/25% chance he’s just staring off into the distance, thinking. But if it’s your friend, and you know he’s oogling because it’s a thing he does, say something.

In fact, in this thread when a woman did speak up when offended by the guy’s behavior, everyone chimed in with stories about the horror of jealous bitches and how they are glad they divorced the one they married.

Well, to say nothing of the fact that @Anaamika’s example doesn’t presuppose that there’s actually a woman present while this conversation is happening, such that she could stand up for herself. And the question is valid, either way: why don’t more of us check other men when they’re talking about women like this, whether they’re around or not? Or are we acting like men don’t get offended by other men saying misogynist stuff?

[Grrr]

@elbows

That’s the thing, grown men CAN control their behaviour and the behaviour of their eyes and heads. It’s not instinctive, automatic or uncontrollable. And trying this as a defense for such behaviour always reflects badly on those who try, in my opinion.

I agree. But I think the problem here is the primal part of your brain vs the higher functioning part of your brain. I would argue that their is a very brief time lapse before your higher brain functions kick in and over rules the chemical response that is happening in your brain when you see an attractive person.

[Lightray]

@Reluctant_A

Well, to say nothing of the fact that @Anaamika’s example doesn’t presuppose that there’s actually a woman present while this conversation is happening, such that she could stand up for herself. And the question is valid, either way: why don’t more of us check other men when they’re talking about women like this, whether they’re around or not? Or are we acting like men don’t get offended by other men saying misogynist stuff?

Anaamika wasn’t the one who described the situation; she was commenting on a post by Bullitt:

@Bullitt

I had a coworker who was fixated on breasts. This, in a white collar, cubicle farm office where every one of us worked at a PC in their cube (so, not something like a coal mine where there are locker rooms, mens and womens).

He could NOT control his eyeballs, no matter what. The office ladies (yes they were pretty, young, curvy) were dressed conservatively, no tight t-shirts without a bra, usually nothing even suggestive, that kind of thing. They wanted to say, Hey Craig, my eyes are UP HERE, y’know. (not his real name)

The women were clearly there, as they wanted to say something. But they didn’t. Bullitt doesn’t mention why they didn’t, but apparently wouldn’t say something himself. Anaamika wants The Men to stand up and say something.

If there’s a creepy guy ogling your boobs, put on your big girl panties and say something yourself. Bullitt’s coworkers apparently waited years, and then seem to have only tried to passive-aggressively humiliate him in a public presentation. Which is, quite possibly, the worst solution to have chosen. Even going to complain to HR would’ve been better than that.

[Reluctant_A]

@Lightray

Anaamika wasn’t the one who described the situation; she was commenting on a post by Bullitt:
The women were clearly there, as they wanted to say something. But they didn’t. Bullitt doesn’t mention why they didn’t, but apparently wouldn’t say something himself. Anaamika wants The Men to stand up and say something.

If there’s a creepy guy ogling your boobs, put on your big girl panties and say something yourself. Bullitt’s coworkers apparently waited years, and then seem to have only tried to passive-aggressively humiliate him in a public presentation. Which is, quite possibly, the worst solution to have chosen. Even going to complain to HR would’ve been better than that.

From my point of view, she did both: she commented on @Bullitt’s scenario, *and *she presented an example from her own life, one which does not specify that she was in mixed-gender company when she checked the woman who made the inappropriate comment.

And the men should say something: not because it’s their responsibility to “cape up” or “white knight” for a woman who can speak for herself, but because that’s some fuck shit to say around anybody, and they shouldn’t put up with it, either.

[kenobi_65]

@Grrr

But I think the problem here is the primal part of your brain vs the higher functioning part of your brain. I would argue that their is a very brief time lapse before your higher brain functions kick in and over rules the chemical response that is happening in your brain when you see an attractive person.

Dave Barry refers to this as the Leer Circuit.

[control-z]

With regards to Wooderson: That’s what I like about 20-somethings, I keep getting older, they stay the same age.

If they were attractive when I was 25 why wouldn’t they be attractive now?

[Hector_St_Clare]

@Mijin

Of course most stupid behaviours are going to be more common in the young than the old.

But there’s a specific kind of behaviour I’m thinking of, and I see it more often in older guys than younger guys. A kind of focusing on a shy / nervous girl, being aware that she’s uncomfortable and consciously trying to wear her down. Perhaps it works sometimes, but I’ve only seen/heard instances where it upsets and annoys.
Maybe the dynamic is slightly skewed here as I live in Shanghai and in the set of {older guys I’ve seen trying to pick up young girls} it’s disproportionately white guys trying to get asian girls, and white, older guys in Shanghai may not be a very representative group. But then I never made any claim about the prevalence of this approach.

I’m sure there’s a subset of older guys who try to do this, and who use the inexperience of the girls in question to their advantage. I’m sure there’s another subset of older guys who like being a benevolent leader figure. Likewise among young guys, there are guys with good intentions and ones with bad ones. I doubt the level of morality changes much as you age, but the level of self control, understanding social cues and overall maturity certainly does.

In any case, yea, what you describe is certainly to be deplored, I just doubt it happens more often among older men.

[Urbanredneck]

@kayaker

I was talking to a guy I know when his eyes glazed over, his jaw dropped, and he just stared over my shoulder. I turned around, and there was my 15 year old daughter walking up to say hi. Ten years have passed and I stil think of him as a creepy dude.

That reminds me of the story of the man who went to a strip bar and was oggling the young dancers until he realized one of them was his daughter.

Now this is only a 3rd hand story but I bet the event has happened. Those strippers have to be SOMEBODIES daughter.

[Chronos]

Quoth Bullitt:

Back to when the ladies would ask me, What’s up with Craig? I would say that my theory, that he was an only child, and his mother had an ample bosom and breast-fed him through puberty, stopping only at HS graduation. It was a ridiculous theory, but about the only thing I could think of that would explain Craig’s behavior.

More likely the reverse, I’d think. I’m considerably less fascinated by breasts than most men, and I think it’s because, when I was a kid, the babysitter had an infant whom she breast-fed, and didn’t care if we saw. So the female breast had no mystery to me: It was just what you use to feed a baby.

Quoth Hector_St_Clare:

18-20 would be my most preferred age range for dating/relationships, and if I’m attracted to someone in that age group I’m certainly going to mention their name, why wouldn’t I?

So if you get into a relationship with an 18-year-old, just like you like, what happens three years later, when she turns 21? Or five years, or ten? Do you just immediately dump her for another 18-20-year-old? If your standard of “acceptable relationship partner” doesn’t increase in age as fast as you do, you’re going to have problems eventually.

[The_Other_Waldo_Pepper]

@Hector_St_Clare

I’m sure there’s a subset of older guys who try to do this, and who use the inexperience of the girls in question to their advantage. I’m sure there’s another subset of older guys who like being a benevolent leader figure.

All apologies for the hijack, but this is going to drive me nuts: wasn’t there a movie a few years back where an older man starts relationships with younger women because what he truly relishes is being the guy who introduces them to art and culture and, yeah, sex, but I can’t stress enough that he genuinely enjoys being the one who gets to explain literary allusions and recommend fine wines?

Invariably turning each woman into someone who no longer needs to be shown the ropes, at which point he loses all interest – because once stuff’s been explained to her, once she’s tried new things and read his favorite book and heard everything he knows about the local art gallery, he’s (a) out of ‘worldly teacher’ material, and (b) looking for someone new to enjoyably groom into someone who’ll outgrow him?

[msmith537]

@FairyChatMom

Reluctant A. - do you then think that finding someone attractive automatically suggests a sexual context? Or are you saying that you consider that sexual context to be skeevy?

Come to think of it, does attractive = pleasing to the eye? Or attractive = drawn towards? In a social circle, I choose the former but in scientific circles, it’s the latter. I don’t suppose my definitions are universal…

I think we are saying attractive = pleasing to the penis.

I generally think it’s not disgusting. Although I saw a Dane Cook routine the other day where he was talking about dating a much younger girl who would have been 1 years old when he graduated high school. “It would be like if I pointed to a baby in the crowd and said ‘some day I’m going to fuck that baby!’”

[Hector_St_Clare]

@Chronos

More likely the reverse, I’d think. I’m considerably less fascinated by breasts than most men, and I think it’s because, when I was a kid, the babysitter had an infant whom she breast-fed, and didn’t care if we saw. So the female breast had no mystery to me: It was just what you use to feed a baby.
So if you get into a relationship with an 18-year-old, just like you like, what happens three years later, when she turns 21? Or five years, or ten? Do you just immediately dump her for another 18-20-year-old? If your standard of “acceptable relationship partner” doesn’t increase in age as fast as you do, you’re going to have problems eventually.

I’m not interested in marriage or children or any kind of permanent relationship right now, largely because I’m too focused on work. A relationship for a couple years sounds perfect, and I’d be up front about that.

Down the road, if I do get married, it won’t be for love, it will be a economic partnership for the purpose of childrearing, and it would definitely be an ‘open’ marriage, i.e. I’d expect my wife to date and have sex with other people that really pushed her buttons, and I’d hope for the same freedom myself. I think the link between sex, love and marriage is deeply rooted in our evolutionary history but I also think it’s mostly outlived its usefulness in an age of effective birth control, so I’m not really looking for a ‘traditional’ marriage.

[The_Other_Waldo_Pepper]

@msmith537

I think we are saying attractive = pleasing to the penis.

I generally think it’s not disgusting. Although I saw a Dane Cook routine the other day where he was talking about dating a much younger girl who would have been 1 years old when he graduated high school. “It would be like if I pointed to a baby in the crowd and said ‘some day I’m going to fuck that baby!’”

I believe Michael Douglas was twenty-five the day Catherine Zeta-Jones was born.

I also believe it would’ve been odd for Michael Douglas not to have been attracted to Catherine Zeta-Jones. Because, well, you’ve seen Catherine Zeta-Jones, right?