I’ve read this entire thread and most of the participants have made erudite, thoughtful contributions. My shallow observation is that children born of interracial marriages, tend to be much more attractive than either of their parents. I’ve noticed this over the years and so I think intermingling of genes is a very good thing, based on my observation.
If you’ve ever seen me and my daughter, that would bear out Medstar’s observation.
Hey, if you marry outside your race, your kids are more likely to be healthier and have far fewer rare genetic defects. Many debilitating genetic defects exist only, or almost entirely in certain races. For instance, Cystic fibrosis is much more commonly found in Caucasians than blacks, and almost never found in Asians. Cystic fibrosis is a recessive disease, thus it would not be expresses in a child of a White and Asian couple, although they may become a carrier.
FeistyMongol, as a Westerner living most of my life in Asia, I have to say that you are the classic example of the insecure Asian male. And I’m allowed to say that because I was raised here, right?
Wow, thanks medstar. I cannot help but agree with you. 
Indeed it is. I’ve deliberately avoided getting into history arguments in any of these related threads ( though I’ve been sorely tempted ) for that reason. But since you asked… :
Nice compliment but probably overbroad and likely inaccurate :).
However as to Kagan’s claims, my answer would be - I doubt it.
I’ll admit to not having a full list of Yuan emperors’ wives ( though I know that Quibilai’s at leat, were all Mongol, and one, Chabi, was very important indeed ), but it is a fact that the Yuan Mongols instituted a three- ( later four, after the conquest of the Southern Sung ) level “racial” ( sort of - it was really based more on date of incorporation into the empire ) caste system in which the Chinese occupied the lowest layers. The Northen Chinese that had been subjects of the Chin, along with the Jurchen, the Khitan, and sinicized Koreans were referred to as Han-jen and were level three and the S. Sung subjects were hsin fu-jen and were level four. These categories had all sorts of social, political, and legal ramifications and intermarriage between these defined groups ( the Mongols obviously occupied level one ) was strictly forbidden. Since Mongols had all the highest government posts reserved to themselves, such intermixture could conceivably create some real difficulties.
Now rules are meant to be broken and I don’t doubt that some Chinese women might have been taken as wives ( but probably far more commonly as concubines ). But I rather doubt it was common given the above. Regardless, I do not think the Mongols had their warlike spirits tamed and their loyalties seriously compromised and that was the cause of their downfall. Some ephemeral and limited sinicization definitely took place among the administrative class ( but the Mongols, far more than the Manchus, put in all sorts of blocks to prevent this happening lower down the ladder ), but the primary cause for the Yuan collapse was a string of incompetent rulers, constant infighting and civil strife between contenders for the throne, highly decentralized rule ( despite some previous thought to the contrary, Yuan adminstrative control seems to have been quite loose outside the general environs of Peking ) and rampant mismanagement exacerbated near the end by severe natural disasters. The Mongols certainly continued to remain a viable and pretty warlike threat to the Ming, as such later notables as Esen Khan and Altan Khan were to prove.
So, I’m sceptical and would like to see better documentation before I bought that theory :).
- Tamerlane
Sure, I did get a bit peeved about the post. Apologies for being over-defensive. Maybe I’m still seeing that original post through blinders of some sort but the tone of the thing seemed to assume that the reason for marrying someone from Asia was that they were seen as hyper-feminine or submissive.
The assumption that someone would marry one of a different race/culture due to inaccurate Hollywood portrayals was roughly the same as calling myself and others like me, an idiot. Who in their right minds would base life-changing decisions based on something Hollywood spewed?
Having said all that, I really didn’t mean to cause the guy to go into a spit-spraying frenzy and I did admit he had a point on the “sexy” part of his post.
Regards.
testy
Bonjour… er, hey… Well, IMHO, interracial marriage isn’t so bad… but I can’t help but thinking that “color” and ethnicity are not race… race to me is human race, or the race of wolves, or dwarves, or orcs, Uruk-hai, Istari, hobbits and the tall yummy pointy-eared deadly-shot-with-a-bow elves of Tolkien’s Middle-Earth… As an American, one can be of any “race” or mix of “races”… I am known as a mutt or mixed nut to my family… I am German, Hungarian, Bohemian, French Canadian, Welsh, Irish, English and Scottish… I am proud to be a mix of so many cultures, especially Irish, English and Scottish, for that is my main interest… My sister and brothers are not as interested in the our Celtic heritage, but were brought up by the same parents and same background…there is some of the diversity… And, like many of the others said, diversity is more than “race”… Personality and culture mix to form some of the most unique people ever… Hell, of all the people I know of my same “color” I am the only one obsessed with Lord of the Rings and is also rather enamored with the elvish character Legolas…more diversity… Also, there is diversity of beliefs… My mother and sister are Catholic, my dad Lutheran, my one brother undecided, the other brother atheist and me pre-Christian beliefs… more diversity among same “race” even… So, within a single “color” even we still are mixed and diverse… why not mix some more… Variety is the spice of life… Now give me my Elf Combo to go with a large Mountain Dew!!! 
I am a Southern gal hailing from one of the original 13 American colonies. I read most of the above posts, and although I couldn’t quite keep up with some of the more cerebral debating, I do have a couple of my own observations and comments to add. I will be honest, however, which may not meet some “politically correct” standards. I sincerely hope I do not offend anyone.
I think the way we all feel about interracial relationships depends on where and how we were raised. It is obviously an emotional issue for some of us, although I must say; several posts were hyper-sensitive.
Dare I start by saying that I believe the races to have marked differences from one another? (gasp!)
That being said, I will admit that I have misgivings about interracial dating and marriage. Why? I’m not sure, but maybe I’ll figure it out as I write this post.
Having grown up in a “typical” Old South environment (black nursemaid who was my “chocolate mama”) I had - and still have - loving relationships with black folks all my life. My “chocolate mama” taught me how to cook, how to sing, how to sew, how to love Jesus and how to bait a crab trap. I loved her with all my heart (dare I say MORE than my “real/vanilla mama”?) My “vanilla mama” taught me about literature, grammar, etiquette, and how to dress and act properly, and an appreciation for the symphony and the ballet. My two “mamas” were as different as night and day. And yes, it was because they were black and white. And yes, each was better at some things than the other, because of their race.
I remember when schools were integrated here in South Carolina, and Chocolate Mama was complaining about it. “But we don’t want to go to school with you white folks!” she said. When I asked her why, she replied, “Cuz ya’ll is boring!”
If one of her sons were to come home one day and announce that he was marrying a white girl, she’s probably say the same thing to him! She would probably also worry about the comments from relatives and friends. The inevitable problems that would arise. Not insurmountable problems, but problems nonetheless.
If one of my sons announced he were marrying a black girl, I wonder what I would say? Frankly, the thought bothers me. Is it because I think black folks are inferior? No, that’s not it at all. Is it because I’m worried about “what my friends will think”? Yes, that’s part of it. Maybe there is no good reason for how I would react. Maybe there is. Am I wrong to feel like this? Am I simply reacting from a desire to protect my son from whispers and stares? Or is it deeper than that?
IS is ok to date or marry someone from a different race? I’m afraid I still can’t figure it out. I welcome any comments and insights that can help me with this introspection. It would also be interesting to hear an African American’s point of view. I sincerely hope I haven’t offended anyone.
bellaluna (beautiful screen name), accepting to be confused and being open minded and willing to hear arguments that may change your mind is not reasonto be ashamed. I, for one, didn’t find your post offensive, it just reflects a lack of interaction with other open minded people.
I come from an inter-racial marriage. As I explained somewhere before, in my country the politics and dinamics behind racial issues are NOTHING like in the US. I didn’t know what “inter-racial” meant until after I was exposed to “the outside world”, therefore I accepted as a fact of life that people could marry whomever the hell they wished. A healthy start if you ask me.
Having explained that, I have to say that I haven’t noticed ANY difference WHATSOEVER betwen my parents just because they happen to be of different hues of the Pantone Chart. The only differences arise because of gender and personality, something common to couples of all combinations.
I suspect that the difference that you saw betwen black and white people in your early childhood arise from people growing up in different enviroments, different levels of education and different level of wealth. Nothing inherent to race per se.
I have walked many paths in life and I have never noticed that I am any different to other people because of my (convenient) built-in tan. I have no qualms in people marrying whomever they chose to, I don’t see any disadvantage or moral quandary in it.
YMMV.
The differences that bellaluna saw had everthing to do with race politics in this country, you’ve indicated are not the same where you come from(whever that is), and because of that I think your suspicions are way off.
Can you elaborate as to what some of this problems would be? Do you think the problems would be the same in say NYC as they would where you live?
What would be the cause of the whispers and stares? How much stigma is attached to a White man marrying a Black Woman where you come from?
Sincere thanks to Mighty Girl and EasyPhil for their patient insights and questions!
You are correct, Mighty Girl - I did not (and STILL do not) interact with enough open minded people! I see that now at the wise old age of 43. It has been a big step for me to join discussions on a message board like this. I want to be more open minded and educated about society. I can’t help where or how I was raised, but I can certainly do something about the values and beliefs I now have because of that. (And thanks for appreciating my screen name. There’s a double entendre because of the spelling of my real last name, but I guess I shouldn’t divulge that.) 
Anyway, I’m excited about expanding my point of view and doing a fearless inventory of any prejudices I may carry. It worries me that I may feel prejudice toward the black folks I’ve always loved and admired so much. But why else would I be concerned if my son were to fall in love with, say, a black woman? I have always thought of prejudice as hate and fear based. I know I don’t harbor those feelings. I also know there are plenty of people who do. I think I am simply ignorant and curious. Now I’m beginning to wonder if I’ve been a hypocrite all my life! What an awful thought! I’ve always LOVED everyone so much. I LOVED and admired how my black friends were “different” than me - they were, well, COOL. They were funny. They were physically prowessed. They were passionate and artistic and musical. I always felt so pale and (as Chocolate Mama reminded me) BORING. I wanted to go home with CM and smell her house and feel her passions and listen to her music and play with her children without having to worry about being so proper and, yes, BORING.
You are correct also, EasyPhil, in your observation about race politics here in the South. Yes, there is a stigma if you are in an interracial relationship. I guess there is anyway. Frankly, if I see an interracial couple, I am interested because it’s a novelty, not because I disapprove. I’m afraid I’m the exception rather than the rule though. Usually an interaccial couple elicits stares and whispers. Why? I don’t know, EasyPhil. It’s very unusual to see, say, a white fella and a black woman together. Why is that? It seems to be common and okie dokie when I go to NYC for a visit. Are folks up there just more open minded? What do “they” know that “we” do not?
But it’s not just interracial couples who cause a stir down here. It’s also unusual to see a couple of guys walking down the street hand-in-hand. (Believe it or not, I have NEVER seen that.) Does that make it wrong? Of course not! Would I be interested because it’s different? Yes!
For what it’s worth, there doesn’t seem to be an issue with an Asian “interracial” relationship around here. You never hear comments - negative or otherwise - about say, a white fella and an Asian lady together. It’s a non-issue. I wonder why?
Again, your patience is appreciated. I really do want to have a mature and fair and un-biased feeling toward my fellow man - and woman. (See! I’m learning already!)
I am all confused now. How are people intrinsecly different because of “politics”.
bellaluna says:
How exactly does politics fit into the fact that bellaluna believes (or suggests) that the black woman is incapable of learning or appreciating “symphony and ballet”? I stand by my original words. What we see her is two people with different upbringing and education. What I said (or maybe meant but didn’t express it all too well) is that there is nothing different in the making of black and white people that would explain the difference she saw in them.
And what exactly does my POB have to do with the fact that I believe what I said above? My mentioning of me not being born in the US was only to explain why I never while growing knew of the concept of my parents being an inter-racial marriage (something an American child is likely to discover as soon as they enter Kindergarten).
Arrrgggggghhh
Let me rephrase the second paragraph
How exactly does politics causes that the black woman is incapable of learning or appreciating “symphony and ballet”?
“Incapable” as suggested by bellaluna that is.
Darn, I should stay away from GD after 8:00PM. Sorry for all the posts. I should just go hit the hay.
It was determined for political reasons that Black people in this country were 3/5ths of a person. I’d give you a cite on this, but I really think you need to do your own research and discovery on this matter.
When you say a person is incapable of learning, that means to me that they have a learning disability or diminished mental capacity. The Black woman is incable of learning or appreciating “symphony” on the one hand but taught bellaluna how to sing on the other. Doesn’t that strike you as a little bit odd?
It has to do with your point of reference. What do you know about race relations in this country, in the time and place that bellaluna was raised? It seems to me that you’re that your ignorant of racial history in the US.
The document (and, rather importantly, the context) where this comes from should be such a big part of any educated American’s life and thinking, that if you can’t come up with the name of the document offhand, you have no business citing it.
Just to get this out of the way, this was from the apportionment clause of the U.S. constitution, a compromise issued to entice southern states into ratifying the constituition. It was superceded by the 14th amendment.
Now that that’s clear, I’m not certain how citing it indicates anything substantively different from what Mighty_Girl said. Racial politics have everything to do with social and cultural environments ( and their historical evolution ).
- Tamerlane
Orbytal wrote:
Date and marry whoever will have you for whatever reason you see fit.