Is interracial dating / marriage good or bad?

Great Debates
61

I guess you have problems with reading, go back and highlight where I said that dating outside the asian racial group was frowned upon by me? I said one comment regarding Lisa Ling dating Rick Yune but that was taken out of context. I went back and restated what I meant by that. That was before I was gangbanged by 10 white people wanting to maintain the social status quo. I guess i’m one of those “uppity coloreds” and I had to put in my place or something. Screw all that you won’t keep this asian man down, EVER.

Btw, there’s nothing with taking non asian first names. Frankly, I prefer it since asian names usually get butchered when anglocized. It’s simpler if you happen to live in the U.S. to do things that way.

62

Back to the OP for a moment, if I may (and with any luck, I’ll try to un-derail this poor thread):

IMO interracial dating/marriage is in general a good thing; all cultures mix and change over time, or they die out. However, any union of people from different backgrounds can be somewhat more of an uphill battle than one of two people from the same background. Much depends, however, on how good at compromise the parties in question are. Race can be a factor in compatibility, but only to the extent that the environment in which a person is raised (part of which includes racial surroundings) tends to influence the parties’ cultural frame of reference and/or outlook on life.

My real-life examples: my parents, first. Two nice, middle-class, college-educated white Jewish kids of East European, 2nd-generation stock, from New Jersey. Basically, on the surface, they are from identical backgrounds. Result, 2 kids, 12 years of marriage, EXTREMELY acrimonious divorce. Why? In spite of all they should have in common, they are so different from each other that I can’t understand how they got married in the first place; I have almost no memories of them being in the same room without lawyers present. They just don’t relate to people in the same way. Mom is an extremely emotive hippie chick; Dad can barely talk about his feelings at all, and is much more reserved, and values material goods much more than Mom does.

Other real-life example: my ex-boyfriend, the nice Muslim guy from the ethnic group of 100,000 in Dagestan, in the North Caucasus, bordered by Chechnya and Azerbaijan; grew up largely in a village of a few thiousand people, raised by parents who were illiterate and spoke nothing but Tabasaran and Azeri. On the surface, he and I should have had nothing at all in common. However, we did end up having quite a lot in common; we both valued education, respected our elders, loved languages and all kinds of music, and believed in treating other people with respect. Where we ran into roadblocks: gender roles, big time! He couldn’t understand why a woman, even a college-educated one, would want a career, or anything besides raising kids. (He did come around on that one a bit over time, and respected my job.) And when he came to visit me in the U.S., I was working all day, and thought it might be nice if he would help me with dinner and dishes; he thought that was my job, and refused to put away his books and get up to help me.

So it didn’t work out in the end for a variety of reasons, but they had much more to do with culture/environment than with race.

63

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by DeadlyAccurate *
**Although I’m white, I don’t find blonde men attractive (except Orlando Bloom as Legolas. YOW!). **

Being attracted to Orlando Bloom as Legolas just means you’re alive. I think it’s in the Bible that NOT to be attracted to him is an abomination; there’s even a waiver for straight guys.

64

Since race is nothing other than culture and environment you’re saying that it didn’t work out because… ?¿?

Hell folks, relationships is hard stuff. Color me stupid if I think that anyone that blames ‘race’ is simply taking short cuts in explaning why it’s so tough to stay together. Any difference in cultural background is hard to deal with, and if the world hold prejudices against said difference its even more difficult. So the question should be: who the hell has the right to have an opinion about other peoples relationships and the answer is: not anyone.

65

The discussion should be around inter-cultural marriages not so much about inter-racial marriages. I don’t see how the latter counts for anything in the great scheme of things (that is assuming that none of the parties involved is a raging racist bigot.

I can see how I could have difficulties sharing a life with an Amazonian indian, not because of how they look but because we don’t share any cultural background. I can still go out on a date with one though… can’t be too picky at my age.

66

Well, I might have had an easier time with someone of the exact same ethnic/religious background, but who was raised, say, in Moscow by educated parents. Same race, different culture. (This is probably a whole other thread, but how are you defining race then? Skin color? Ethnicity? Language/religion? Or do you believe that race is an artificial construct?)

FWIW, I did meet another guy several years later from the same exact highly obscure North Caucasian ethnic group; he was born a few miles away from my ex, but was raised by educated, literate, urban parents, first in the largest city in Dagestan (Derbent), and then in Uzbekistan. Although I guess he was the same “race” as my ex, the way he interacted with people was very different, as were his outlook on education, gender roles, and a bunch of other things that drove me bonkers about my ex. (We never dated, though, so who knows how it would have turned out? When I talked to him, though, it did feel much more like we were on the same wavelength.)

67

I understand what you are saying, but the reality is that even when cultures are quite similar, inter-racial relationships can entail extra difficulties. A same race couple doesn’t have to deal with the tensions of disapproving family members who have strong opinions about race-mixing, and they don’t have to worry about stares and unsolicitied attention out in public, and they don’t have to worry about their kids feeling out of place in society and they don’t have to worry about saying certain “wrong” things. Stuff that is taken for granted and comes easily in intra-racial relationships often becomes a challenge in inter-racial relationships. These issues, although far from insurmountable, shouldn’t be considered irrelevant to the discussion.

It’s hard to describe what I’m talking about, actually. I had a white boyfriend for a short period of time and we liked each other a lot, but he would say things every so often that hurt or bothered me. Sometimes I felt that he didn’t accept me as I was; on more than one occasion I got the impression that he liked me only because he saw me as one those “You’re not like other black women” exceptions. He had stereotypical ideas of black women fastened to his brain with epoxy glue and because I didn’t fit neatly into the mold he had made for all black women, it clearly was because of the white blood in me. The possibility that his ideas were wrong or overgeneralized didn’t even seem to occur to him until I told him to check himself.

IR relationships are cool, in my book. In fact, I think it’s about damn time that people start letting entropy do away with race as we know it and start letting their genes freely mix. But just as I don’t think we should negatively judge those who choose to date outside their race, I don’t think we should hastily conclude that those who don’t date IR are racist or ignorant or other bad things. Some people may not feel like always combating stereotypes and misconceptions with the one they come home to.
My particular experience hasn’t tainted my potential for other IR relationships, but it did highlight some things to be wary of in IRR’s.

68

Her it sounds like you find all the Asian women dating outside their race disturbing, as if it is all happening because of some great stereotype conspiracy.

As for the Lisa Ling/Connie Chung fiasco, with your rantings about asians forfeiting their heritage fora piece of the American Pie, how does dating an Asian proof you have connections to the Asian community? You could just both be “selling out” as you say. It still sounds prejudiced to me. Why should Connie Chung have to get involved in asian groups? It is her life, for some people, their cultural identity is not such a big thing that they have to bang a drum down the street while screaming out “I’m a Martian, and i’m proud, kneel before my Martianness!!”

There are plenty of raging racist bigots left in the world. My ex-stepfather is black, and when my mother started going out with him my grandmother had a fit. Eventually, she moved to Hawaii with my Uncle and Aunt, and they cut off all contact, despite our many attempts over the years. That was about 1988. in May of this year, we found out my Grandmother had died in Dec 1999, and no one had bothered to tell us. So it is a big issue, it is still affecting me today. Not that i care about interracial dating, i’ve dated outside my race more than in it.

69

yes, a thread that has been had many times as regards the biological aspect. The consensus on the board, with two noted opponents, is that race is a socio-cultural construct, hence not artificial, but vaguely unscientific and imprecise. Social anthropologists are more and more abandoning the term in favor for ethnicity, which would include both perceived race based on skin color, or whatever and socio-cultural background. For the purpose of this thread some definition of race is essential since more or less every poster displays a different understanding of what it means.

In fact our biology is way ahead of our perception on this matter. The human gene pool is already so mixed up that genetically speaking you can’t pinpoint individuals to races, as has been explained by other posters more versed in biology and genetics on many occasions. And that’s not what race is above anyway. As Mighty_Girl goes on to say:

Which in fact is where interracial marriages create a specific problem: other peoples impressions. As so poignantly exemplified by Tars Tarkas

A terrible situation also displayed Feistymongol a first hand source of such prejudice and bigotry in this very thread. So. Although I am a fervent opponent of all things that tend towards supporting the existence of race it must be said that, due to the prejudice that is abroad, concerns about interracial relational problems are most justified. Then again, prejudice leads to many other relational problems, such as when we live with; age differences, same-sex relationships, income class differences, varied educational backgrounds, and so on.

What I find most remarkable is that someone like Feistymongol would take issue with peoples sexual/relational preferences because of a perceived slight. Should I be insulted by all men that get turned on by light skinned blondes? Should I perhaps take issue with the scores of people that get a kick out of tallness? Seems like this would hardly be my place in the first case and in the second I rather prefer to keep things the way they are, it has a beneficial effect on my sex life… and so what if it tends to turn me into an object, it’s my choice if I want to play or not.

Sparc

70

I find it hilarious you guys are still working on that big strawman argument from one of my quotes was taken out of context. Here i’ll say it again, I never said explicitly that asians shouldn’t date out of their own race. K? The whole Rick Yung, Lisa Ling comment was said to illustrate that at least two actors in the spotlight haven’t forsaken being asian in favor of only taking token roles for hollywood.

But, I guess you guys will keep attacking that strawman or inserting words into my mouth in order to keep the “argument” rolling.

Fairly predictable.

71

You care to clarify what this means? Really, IMHO, it comes off poorly but I’d rather give you an opportunty to edify rather than to put words in your mouth.

72

**

Lol there is no need for a strawman, the way you overeacted when defending yourself is all the proof of bigotry most people would need. The “argument” died out long ago. It is obvious that you have some fairly clear ideas about how people “should” act as defined by their race and culture; it is equally obvious how you feel about “white” people. If you feel you have been misrepresented by your own comments then please let us know.

**

Let’s hope you won’t be.

I agree that race is mainly a social-cultural construct rather than a phenomenom with a solid biological basis. Much like culture, the variation that exists within a particular racial “group” is likely to be far greater than the difference between any two of those groups. People aren’t defined exclusively by their race or their culture because both of those concepts are largely open-ended.

In my opinion disapproving of someone who is “betraying” their race or culture by adopting parts of another is only something that can come about through a fallacious understanding of what race and culture really mean. They should be things that reflect our actions, not some preconcieved ideal to emulate.

73

It’s ironic that everyone attacks that one quote because I think everyone knows what I mean. The fact is it’s like this with any “minority” person who becomes famous. There’s a certain attitude that’s it’s acceptable and actually encouraged to “trade up” in society by becoming more white. This means marrying into the white upper/middle class and pretending to be white. All the while putting their own culture on a backburner or refusing to be seen around people of your own ethnicity at all. This is done to make the minority look more palatable and not “too ethnic” amongst the white mainstream.

This is a common complaint with prominent blacks too when they “change” themselves to look more white. I remember blacks complaining about OJ Simpson (back before he killed nicole) because he remade his image to become more palatable for white people. This includes marrying into the white middle/upper class (nicole) and pretending to be something you aren’t.

This is what “selling out” is. It’s not just simply dating outside your own race it’s remaking yourself in a white person’s image so you’re accepted. It’s mimicking the colonialist, kind of like how when the irish were oppressed when they first came to America. They started mimicking the behavior and actions of the WASP society at the time. Soon there was a seamless transition where there wasn’t a difference between irish/wasp society at all.

74

:rolleyes:

This argument has been going this way for quite awhile now.

I’ll say “I didn’t say that or that’s not what i’m trying to argue”

People like you will chime in “Yes you are, you hate white people you’re a racist and a chauvinist blah blah blah”

I’ll say “no i’m not here this is what I meant… insert explanation”

You: “No this is what you really meant you’re racist! bunch of insults that has nothing at all to do with the argument and is just obvious baiting”

I’ll say “ok whatever”

The cycle continues… and then random people jump the bandwagon to flame me.

75

Nope, not OK.

Which of the statements would you care to retract?

When you post it, it becomes part of the public record. Denying that you said it just makes you look stupid.

Regards,
Shodan

76

How about you quote it in context smart guy? I was pointing out the heavily female biased asian female to male ratio of interracial pairings. This was used as an example to show how asian women are shown as more “acceptable” or desirable as partners because of preconceived racial notions. You realize that racist stereotypes sometimes have their own gender element to it too right?

77

Well,well, where do I start…so much to do…

I pretty much agree with most of the posters that culture plays a bigger factor than race. I’m more compatible with a white american woman than a black african or even a black europein woman (mainly in the factor of language, cutural relativity and possibily religious views) So in that retrospect the fact I may have the same pigentation as the above mentioned black woman does not mean there is an automatic connection. In fact that would almost seem more like interacial dating than me dating somone with a lighter skin pigmentation.

Sampiro, if you don’t make a seperate thread for you first post here, I will respond in a short way and then respond more in detail when you make that post. I have thought a lot about those two same things,espcially recently. I met this one woman through a web posting and she was offended by the fact that on my prefreance list I put doen everything EXCEPT White,and she accused me of racisim. So I kind of have the same feeling you do. To me it’s racist if you woundn’t give another person the time to day JUST because of their race, not even considering them at all. However, if that particular shade is not your preferance then, no it’s not racist. Its like someone being mad at you for prefering Hot Dos to Hamburgers. As far as the Hard-Drive or Cutural thing, I think for most it’s a bit of both. As far as outright physcial attrractiveness it’s a mix of enviroment and surrondings. For example my ex aunt is chinese-filipino and my mom recalls that during a child I had the hugest crush on her. Why? Dunno. I’ll elaborate later.

I don’t even want to rip on feistymongol yet,except that where I’m from he’s possibily seen more as a sellout to ahem…“asians” than the names he’s dropping. If fact,what the hell are ASIANS in your book? The way your talking is liek your saying Asia is one country with a SINGLE homogenious race. So never mind that Filipinos, Turks, Ainu, Kazickstanians, and malys are ALSO “Asians” as well. So…what’s your definition of “asian” and how shoud an “Asian” behave according to your standards since your an expert in the field of “Asianology” I mean,come on you have to be an expert considering your calling out Lucy Liu. I’m wating for your rip on Mai Kuraki, Maize Hirono and Sachi Koto as well,if you even know who they are…and while were at it,et’s rip on Bruce Lee, the ultamite sellout shall we?

78

Feistymongol, let me first state that I sympathize with you, and I would not characterize you as racist against white people. I understand your desire to be comfortable with who you are in a society that clearly does not portray E. Asian men as desireable.

Frequently, Asian women are portrayed as longing for the “noble white man” in much the same way that Rebecca, the Jewish woman, longed for Ivanhoe.

Some white men are noble, but many are not, and it is indulgent for Hollywood to portray them in the roles such as those played by Richard Gere.

However, there is nothing new about Asian women marrying into different ethnic groups to gain status. In fact, it was Chinese women who ultimately broke down the ethnic loyalties of Mongol warlords in China, taming their warlike spirit and paving the way for the downfall of the Yuan dynasty. If enough Asian women marry into the white elite, they may actually undermine its sense of difference, and thereby advance the position of Asian people in the long-run.

-Kagan

79

Interesting take you’ve got there Kagan on the taming and downfall of the Mongolians.

** Tammerlane**, I realize this entire thread is a bit of a train wreck, but since you’re kinda the SDMB resident expert on things Mongolian, maybe you’d care to comment?

80

I see Testy got a little ‘testy’ over this.

Let me say that after I read this I agree with it. I don’t see any reason to apologize, It’s just an honest opinion from someone makes honest observations. Nothing racist here, it’s just sociology 101. If Testy doesn’t like it, he’s being too defensive. I would think that someone (white) married to an Asian woman would have seen the dirty side3 of racism enough to know that the statement in reference is far from it.