I think it’s neither good nor bad. Dating or marriage doesn’t happen because you want it to happen, it happens because it happens. Time, luck, location, location and location.
Just stop right now, you are going to get hurt. Because I don’t like being stereotyped either.
It’s not a stereotype when i’ve lived here my whole life and have lived through this. I’ve also travelled around the world quite extensively and the U.S. is one of the few places i’ve been where asian stereotypes are so negative or antiquated.
Besides smarmy two line sentences I hope you have something significant to add to this thread.
Pork Chop, American media. American media.
Feistymongol:
Agreed, and I’m about to show you where that bullshit comes from.
**This concept of “selling out” your own race by marrying, dating, or even just being friends with members of another race is where you are contributing to race relation bullshit. Why does Connie Chung have to be involved with asian organizations? How exactly is Lucy Lui supposed to act like an asian woman instead of “trying to be a white woman”? Are you sure that it isn’t you that has a stereotype as to how asian women are supposed to behave when you say something like that? What would be wrong with Lisa Ling dating someone who wasn’t asian? Can’t these women just be American?
You seem to want a certain amount of segregation by frowning on asian women who dare to date outside their own race or become involved in mainstream society. Also, you look down on asian women who don’t fit your stereotype of what asian women are supposed to be.
You, sir, are the one making judgements about people based solely on their race.
Additionally, I suggest you look up the expresion “wallflower”, because you sure aren’t using it correctly. Ling on Ally McBeal was a “wallflower”? Errr, no. Far too agressive.
**
This is where you have totally misinterpreted my post. Selling out is denying that you are whatever ethnicity or even shunning it in favor of attempting to “fit” into the upper tier white social class. There’s a big difference between this and merely integrating.
**
If you’ve payed any attention to the roles they play in the mainstream american media you’d know that oftentimes they ARE in fact playing up the stereotypes. The new racist stereotype concerning asian women is a woman who refuses to even acknowledge she’s asian to begin with. It’s a total role reversal where an asian person is deeply ashamed to be asian and thus embraces white characteristics and roles to further their transition.
Now you wouldn’t happen to be putting words in my mouth or anything would you? :rolleyes:
Never did I say that asian women have to fit into any particular “archetype” or refuse to date outside race. My problem is that the specific roles America has defined for asian women is in fact falling into a stereotype itself. The stereotype that it’s perfectly fine to be ashamed of your ethnicity and to embrace white America as your adopted identity. It’s not simply adopting America, but if you notice many of these asian women emulate white people in a desperate attempt to switch identities and become accepted by the white mainstream . This is troubling for many reasons because it’s just another Uncle Tom impersonation but the 21st century version of it.
No she was the dragonlady in Ally Mcbeal and also doubled as a sexual wallflower occasionally to appease the white mainstream american audience.
I also find it deeply ironic that as a poster you would be so antagonistic about my description of “selling out” but yet you would probably have absolutely no problems with bashing asian men. Typical double standard and gender based racist hypocrisy.
Feisty, how exactly do they “emulate white people”? You are still making judgements on asians if they don’t act what you consider “asian” and act, instead, what you consider “white”. How does someone act “asian”? Please explain what that entails.
But this really irks me.
I have restrained myself from staring a pit thread about this comment. I demand a retraction and an apology. NOW.
Break this down for me, Feisty. She takes roles where she tries to be a white woman which somehow exacerbates Asian stereotyping. Am I following?
How exactly does one attempt to be a “white woman”? As a white woman, I find myself offended by the implication that I work for a man that I’ve never met and run around beating up bad guys along side Drew Barrymore and Cameron Diaz. If you think this is standard operating procedure for white women, you’re sadly mistaken.
Am I the only person who finds this statement 10 times more racist than the quote in the OP?
:rolleyes:
My personal view echoes what I’ve heard from the majority of posters thus far. Interracial dating has it’s own set of obstacles and rewards and I’m looking forward to (though not holding my breath for) the day that these questions no longer need to be asked.
Beeblebrox, I apologize if I sound like I’m parroting you. You sorta beat me to the punch. (Thats what I get for taking too long to write and preview, huh?)
Originally posted by maklavia
**
No.
You can’t have it both ways, you can’t criticize for acting “too asian” or conforming to “asian stereotypes” and then throw out something like this…
Originally posted by Feistymongol
**
Exactly how should they act? Which stereotype is “right?” Am I the only one here who thinks “asian” women should be able to act however they want to without being accused of “selling out?” There is an implicit racial bias in that kind of fingerpointing.
Originally posted by Feistymongol
**
1.) It is a stereotype no matter how much anecdotal evidence you proport to have by virtue of your travels.
2.) Stereotypes about “Asians” do exist in America, it would be foolish to say that they did not. Yet lumping “Americans” into one group (ignorant with “negative or antiquated” views about Asians) is grossly unfair and is itself stereotyping.
Orignally posted by Fiestymongol
**
I see we are playing the name game, please refrain.
I’m not apologizing for jack shit. If the mods want to delete this and boot me so be it but i’m not here to coddle your emotions or cater to your whims. I guess you wanted me to say “Ah so! me so solly massah’” instead you’re just going to get a big fuck you from me.
**
There’s no such thing as acting “too” asian but there is such a thing as conforming to stereotypes. I think this is where you have misunderstood my post or am I offending your white sensibilities too much?
**
I never said any person should act a certain way however there is something called “selling out” where you go to increasingly great lengths to deny your own ancestry in order to emulate a white person for their entertainment. It’s as low and denigrating as the steppin fetchit sideshow carnivals they used to have for black people. Except it’s more modernized these days instead of a tap dancing black man you have token “orientals” in roles designed to cater to a white audience. Be it the latest sexy suzy wong passive-aggressive toy or kung fu chop suey master. They are all white created archetypes to oppress asians into encapsulated stereotyped roles in society.
**
Don’t play the reverse racism game with me.
**
Arguing semantics. How about I say the specific Americans that hold this view and not so much the majority then? Though I suppose you’ll find some other semantically evoked loophole to argue that point as well.
**
I wasn’t talking about the role specifically but the type of role which is basically a white orientated role model palatable for a white audience.
LOL BECAUSE ORIENTALS ARE EVIL FU-MANCHU MALE SUPREMACIST OPPRESSORS RIGHT? I better run back to my fu-manchu style oriental dynasty cave before I offend to many of the white folk. So solly.
What I meant by that comment regarding Lisa Ling and Ricky Yune was that at least she had some type of connection in the asian community and didn’t forsake that in order to make a career. Maybe I should have selected my words more carefully but so many asian actresses try to remake themselves as “white” friendly or white women to endear themselves to a mainstream audience. That includes not being seen with other asians etc… to form that image. It’s all part of the colonialist oppressor role where you try to remake yourself as the oppressor in order to fit in.
Jesus. What a trainwreck. This is soooo ironic because mainstream America has embraced Asian culture far more than it has embraced most other cultures. From Hollywood to fashion, IMHO, it is really quite pervasive. Asians, in general, are undergoing the American Transformation – that which the Jews, Irish, Italians, Czechs, Poles, and all else before them underwent. They all came to America as immigrants, they worked hard, educated their children, and now are becoming wealthy and key members of the American middle class.
Because their children are Americanized doesn’t constitute selling out. It just constitutes the “melting pot” thing. So there is St. Patrick’s Day, there is Chinese New Year. Big celebrations all becoming part of the American tradition. There is Schindler’s List, there is Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Both big movies told from an ethnic point of view.
Sure there are stereotypes, sure there is still racism. But I think it is far easier being an Asian American, undergoing the successful immigrant transformation and becoming fully integrated into society, than an African American, whose culture was suppressed by Americans for 300 years. Asian descent is quickly becoming as irrelevant as Irish, Jewish, or Polish descent. The same doesn’t happen with African Americans perhaps because their transition into the American middle class has been hampered by all of this history.
*Originally posted by Feistymongol *
Well, i’m less than enthralled with your over defensive knee-jerk reaction to my observation. As someone that’s grown up in the U.S. as a person of color (asian american male) i’ve seen these things up close and personal. I doubt any white person would truly understand the stereotyping and implications race relations has on gender equality within racial boundaries.
I don’t consider my reaction “over defensive.” As far as the “Knee Jerk” part you have a point. That is my wife so a certain amount of automatic defense is appropriate and reasonable. As a white male American, I’m certain I could never understand your issues with being Asian in the states. The capacity for empathy was bred out of us centuries ago. Who’s coming out with the racist stereotypes now?
**
From my experiences, the American media has gone to great lengths to portray asian women as sexual wallflowers out to be exploited by white american males. Look at the evidence before you speak. Look at all the racially denigrating asian porn with racist titles available in the U.S. Almost all of it has some kind of racial angle to it. Look at the different movies that portray asian women as nothing else but scrap heap proxy white women. Even the characters played by Lucy Liu et al are usually nothing but exotic stand ins for white women.
**
“Scrap heap proxy white women?” Where the hell do you come up with that? Likewise the “Racially denigrating asian porn” bit. Last time I scrounged through usenet there was a group in alt.binaries for just about anything imaginable, and a few things I’d never heard of. Redheads, black women, latinas, and yes, Asians as well. Did I miss the memo where Asian women got a pass on being in porn stars?
**
If my pointing out of oft held asian stereotypes bothers you then perhaps you shouldn’t read my posts? Once again, from the media asian women often are portrayed as stereotypically submissive. Your wife may differ but the evidence out there points that there’s a certain preconceived notion about asian women which makes them so “popular” in the fetish category.
**
What “evidence out there?” I suspect that for every Asian porn film you can come up with I could match it with a corresponding film starring women of almost any other race except Innuit and Australian aborigine. Are Asian women degraded in some porn films? Certainly. Is it more than other races? I doubt it seriously.
**
What’s ironic about your statement above is you spend most of your post venting about my pointing out of commonly held stereotypes then on the flip side you go right ahead and validate my observations by stating that asian women are more “traditional.” By traditional perhaps you mean they obey your command and are submissive like a good little 19th century wife?
**
“Commonly held stereotypes.” Commonly held by who? 17 year old boys? Yes, quite possibly. I certainly wouldn’t consider them as setting social standards though. And where the hell did you get the idea that my wife, or even Asian wives in general, obeyed commands like some kind of robot? And what would be the attraction if they did? If you took anything I said previously as validating any of your observations you might want to re-check the post.
**
This is exactly what i’m talking about. The stereotype that asian women are “lesser” or “traditional” or “tamed.” This often held viewpoint that asian women are less progressive in society and just sit around waiting all day for a man to liberate them. To be honest, unless you got a mail order bride (which it sounds like you did) most asian-american women are nowhere as “traditional” as you claim.
I have to also point out that this heavy racial stereotyping of asians seems to be a commonly held AMERICAN phenomenon. Like I said before I spent a great deal of time in western europe (and some time in eastern) and the asian stereotyping was far less. My theory on this is there’s still a lot of latent animosity towards asians (especially asian males) in american society due to the many wars America has fought with asian nations. **
I understand what you’re talking about but I’m not sure where you’re getting it from in my post. My mentioning that many Asian women are “traditional” was possibly more broad than I intended. You seem to be confusing “traditional” with “downtrodden.” Some of the women (Asian) that my wife runs around with are bank tellers, lawyers, PR managers for the local branch of a major hotel chain, and other standard, plain vanilla type jobs. As far as the “Mail order bride” part, you couldn’t be further from the truth. We were engaged for a year before marrying and went through a Buddhist wedding ceremony in Thailand. Could it possibly be that the poor, exploited, "sexual wallflowers don’t need your pity?
Apologies for the late reply, different time zones.
Testy.
Although I’m white, I don’t find blonde men attractive (except Orlando Bloom as Legolas. YOW!). That doesn’t make me racist to the large population of men in the Scandinavian countries. You’re attracted to what you’re attracted to, and that’s a purely physical reaction. I like long hair on men. It immediately makes them more physical attractive to me, regardless of race.
Your friend was just having a knee jerk reaction to the idea that you could say something even remotely negative about black people.
Geez. Feisty, exactly what is your expectation for an appropriate movie or theater role for an Asian woman or man? I don’t understand what might be “Asian enough” without being “too Asian”. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon? Mulan? Are those too Asian?
And, speaking of white America’s fear and revulsion of all people and things Asian–how about the love affair with sushi over the past few years, and the endless popularity of Asian food? How about the Taekwondo studio my kid is in, owned and run by a white guy (4th degree black belt), with mostly white kids, all bowing to show respect to the American and Korean flags (same size) before each class, and answering to Korean commands? I apologize for the anecdotal nature of these observations, but I’m just not seeing the universal White animosity and belittling views toward Asians that you seem to be describing.
Back to the OP–I know of four Asian/White couples, all long-time marrieds. One couple is Asian man/White woman, the others are the opposite. One of the Asian women is a stockbroker, another is a pharmacist, another is an attorney. None of these women is a “traditional housewife” sort.
Is it only because I’m not Asian that I’m not seeing the trends that you are? What is so awful about Asian/White marriages?
Note- a good friend of mine (blonde, yet) and her husband (Italian) are in the process of adopting a Chinese child. She won’t be the only Asian kid in the family–she will have her Korean aunt and half-Korean cousin in town. What would be your advice to them? When these girls grow up, whom should they marry?
**
WTH is “reverse racism?” It seems to me that you are either racist or you are not. I see a lot of racism here, but it isn’t directed at Asians. You figure it out.
**
This is what I mean. Take the chip off your shoulder you have about “white” people and maybe we can talk. We aren’t all “oppressors.”
Skin colour is not culture. My parents are in the two opposite ends of the Pantone Chart but they are, culturally speaking, identical. I didn’t know what a “inter-racial marriage” was until after I was 20 I think (I knew the word, just didn’t pay attention to it).
I was engaged to an Scandinavian for over 7 years, on the second date we discovered that we (being the same age) had done pretty much the same things throughout our lives. We are both fans of The Simpsons and both listened to Heavy metal and had stupid haircuts back in the 80’s. He was protestant, I am Catholic, fair enough since neither of us are into religion and only attended church once (his friend wedding).
If you were born in the 70’s or after, belong to the middle class and had access to MTV in your teens chances are that we all have pretty much the same cultural background. One of my friends call it the “Global MTV Generation”. If not, it is going to be slightly more difficult, but not neccesarily a bad thing.
I don’t think Feistymongol will be convinced by any information you tell him. I If i spouted some of his claims with different races, i’d be ran out of town by a torch-carrying mob.
perhaps one day Feistymongol will learn that Asians in America are PEOPLE, and have a choice to date whoever the #@%^ they want. I don’t really want to say this, but you seem to be perpetuating stereotypes about Asian men with your posts berating Asian women for not conforming to your definitions of how they should act. I’m surprised you didn’t bring up asians taking American names, isn’t that rejecting the culture as well? Oh, wait, that has nothing to do with asian women you want to date going out with white guys you think are jerks, does it?
Moderator’s Note: Feistymongol, regardless of your views on racism, stereotyping, or integration, if you want to give anyone “a big fuck you”, Great Debates is not the place to do it.
In fact, this entire thread needs to simmer down, now.