No shit Sherlock. The same site you are denigrating actually says that.
Newsflash: Qu’ranic stories are not necessarily historically accurate, neither are are Bible / Torah stories.
Lambchops - The correct translation of the phrase “La Ellaha llalah” is NOT “there is no god but God” but that “There is none other worthy of worship except Allah”. Several verses in the Koran also substantiate the latter meaning. Nowhere in the Koran is the existence of other deities or gods denied. The people of the Quresh are not asked to deny the existence of other gods. Rather they are asked to stop worshipping the other gods and worship only Allah instead. Since you do not seem to have read the Koran(reading = understanding), if it helps, I can quote those verses from the Surahs that support this contention. That in my view does not make Islam truly monotheistic.
Muhammed died in 630 A.D. Although the first compilation was made in Abu Bakr’s time, it was only in the time of Uthman(3rd Caliph) that a final single version was established.
I regret the error. What I meant was “biography”.
[QUOTE=lambchops]
…you suggest hadiths say stupid things anyway
[QUOTE]
The point is about the reliability of the source. As can be seen from some of the cites I gave from the Hadith, and incidentally they are all from Sahih Bukhari, they raise questions about the integrity of the source. If a source is unreliable in one context, what is the guarantee that it is reliable in others?
Please read the post from The Tim above. He has understood and said exactly what I am trying to convey. There cannot be any religion which is idolatrous, because no idiot worships an idol in itself. The pagans of the pre-Islamic era used objects as symbols to worship their deities. Muhammed asked (and later forced) them to worship only one deity - Allah. As far as worshipping is concerned, please understand that it is impossible to worship a void. When a person worships and offers prayers to his diety, assuming the worship is not just a ritual and he is not thinking of what is for dinner, he is in conversation with the diety and you cannot converse with a void. If associating an image, real or imaginary, with the diety is idolatry then all religions are guilty of idolatry, else idolatry is an impossibility.
Thanks for that Tim. It follows then that the pagans that Muhammed converted were NOT idolaters in the real sense and so the whole idea of them changing their faith because they were branded as isolaters was a big sham.
Sorry about the misplaced “quotes” above. Wish they allowed editing of posts. Here is my post again and I hope I am getting it right this time.
Lambchops - The correct translation of the phrase “La Ellaha llalah” is NOT “there is no god but God” but that “There is none other worthy of being worship except Allah”. Several verses in the Koran also substantiate the view that the existence of other deities or gods is not denied. The people of the Quresh are not asked to deny the existence of other gods. Rather they are asked to stop worshipping any god other than Allah. Since you do not seem to have read the Koran(reading = understanding),if it helps, I can quote those verses from the Surahs that support this contention.That in my view is not true monotheism.
Muhammed died in 630 A.D. Although the first compilation was made in Abu Bakr’s time, it was only in the time of Uthman that a final single version was established.
I regret the error. What I meant was “biography”.
The point is about the reliability of the source. As can be seen from some of the cites I gave from the Hadith, and incidentally they are all from Sahih Bukhari, they raise questions about the integrity of the source. If a source is unreliable in context, what is the guarantee that it is reliable in other areas?
Please read the post from The Tim above. He has understood and said exactly what I am trying to convey. There cannot be any religion which is idolatrous, because no idiot worships an idol in itself. The pagans of the pre-Islamic era used objects to worship their deities. Muhammed asked (and later forced) them to worship only one deity - Allah. As far as worshipping is concerned, please understand that it is impossible to worship a void. When a person worships and offers prayers to his diety, assuming the worship is not just a ritual and he is not thinking of what is for dinner, he is in conversation with the diety and you cannot converse with a void. If associating an image with the diety is idolatry the all religions are guilty of idolatry, else idolatry is an impossibility.
Thanks for that Tim. It follows then that the pagans that Muhammed converted were NOT idolaters in the real sense and so the whole idea of them changing their faith was a big sham.
I want a cite on that. I mean a serious one, mentionning the meaning of each arabic word included. First, it’s not “La Ellaha Ilalah” but “La ilaha illa llah”, four words, not three, so you got it wrong. I forgot the little arabic I knew, so I can’t state for sure that your translation is incorrect, but I’m pretty certain it is, and that “no deity but God” is much closer.
Anyway, there are arabic speakers on this board, and they certainly will be able to give us a litteral translation, lacking a cite.
wisernow, I’m sorry, but as an Arab and a practicing Muslim, I have to tell you that your translation of the Shahada is incorrect. I’m not sure if you’ve studied Arabic and translated it yourself, or whether you’re quoting a translation you’ve seen somewhere else, but I’m afraid it’s wrong.
The Shahada (or declaration of faith), clearly states that “There is no God but Allah, and Mohammad is his Prophet.”
Islam is about as monotheistic as it’s possible to get, but I think some of the confusion here lies in your definition of “idolatry”. Muslims obviously do not worship the inanimate objects of either the black stone, or the Kaaba. But you seem to be saying that using an inanimate image as a point of focus durimng prayer is also idolatry.
For example, while I’m praying, I might picture the Kaaba in my mind as a way of focusing on what I’m doing and as a way of blocking out any distractions or extraneous thoughts. This does not mean that i equate the Kaaba with God, or that I worship the Kaaba.
Similarly, while I’m praying, I might very well be thinking about a problem I’m having at work, or about a conversation I had that morning. Ideally, I should be concentrating on what I’m doing, but the human mind is easily distracted (or maybe it’s just me!). Muslims do not have an image of God - all such visual depiction are frowned upon, and so i do not have a picture of God in my mind when I pray. That is not to say that I “Pray to a void” - but rather that I focus on the attributes of God, instead of a picture of god
During a proper prayer, my mind should be focused on the verses I am reciting, considering their meaning and contemplating their importance. Prayers are an act of worship, not just of supplication, and so my mind should be focused on the blessings I have received from God and on the proper expression of humility and gratitude.
Hope that helps clear things up a little…
The letters of the english alphabet used to write this transilteration are varied. You can say that there are four words and not three, but I think what we are concerned about is the meaning. Rather than try to break up the words, it is better we talk about the phrase. In order to grasp the meaning of that phrase, you have to read the Koran. As I said earlier, I can quote several verses from the Koran where Allah (assuming the Koran to be the word of Allah spoken by Gabriel) does not deny the existence of other gods. Over and over again it says that none other than Allah is worthy of worship. As an example, there is a verse in the Koran that says “on the day of judgement all those gods that you worship will not be able to help you since only you will be answerable for yourself”. I shall post the exact verses soon.
In Arabic, the phrase consists of four words: “La Ilaa-ha Ill Allah”. the first two words " La Ilaa-ha" mean “There is no God (or no deity)”. The last two words “Ill Allah” mean “except for Allah”. It’s pretty unambiguous, and none of the words say anything about worship.
I think you have misinterpreted this passage and the others like it. This does not mean that the Quran acknowledges the existence of other gods, merely that some people worship them erroneously and will be shown the error of their ways on the day of judgement. The meaning here is that polytheists are wrong, because the false gods they worhip do not exist and will not be able to aid them on the final day.
Please do
What I mean is that if your source mixed up two different words, it was unlikely to be reliable concerning the translation.
And also, it was relevant for me because precisely I was trying to figure out the literal meaning of the sentence (and failed, since I don’t have an arabic dictionnary, and couldn’t find what the third word mean).
But since bibliovore is arab (I didn’t know that, by the way), I suppose he will be able to enlighten me.
Rather than try to break up the words, it is better we talk about the phrase. In order to grasp the meaning of that phrase, you have to read the Koran. As I said earlier, I can quote several verses from the Koran where Allah (assuming the Koran to be the word of Allah spoken by Gabriel) does not deny the existence of other gods. Over and over again it says that none other than Allah is worthy of worship. As an example, there is a verse in the Koran that says “on the day of judgement all those gods that you worship will not be able to help you since only you will be answerable for yourself”. I shall post the exact verses soon.
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:smack: As usual, I posted first and read the folowing posts latter…
I speak Arabic, though it’s not my mother tongue, and here’s an (unprofessional) translation. The shahada definitely contains 4 separate words
la - no
alah - god / deity
ila - but / except
Allah - God, the proper name
Therefore “la alah ila Allah” = (There is) no god but God. No ambiguity at all. Your assertion is therefore INCORRECT.
Yes, the Qu’ran was compiled in the time of Uthman, and Uthman ruled approx ten years after Muhammad (644 - 656). Your assertion that it was transcribed 80 years after Muhammad’s death is therefore INCORRECT.
You earlier cited the hadith as the support for your view (“My cites are not many…”). Then you attacked the hadith for being unreliable when it was pointed out that they contradicted you. In a later response, you again asserted that they are unreliable. Therefore, you cannot rely on the hadith as support for your claim.
I don’t like the way you argue - you try to argue from two mutually inconsistent viewpoint simultaneously (the hadiths support my view, the hadiths are rubbish) and pretend you know the exact translation of the shahada even though you speak no Arabic, unlike some people on this board like Bibliovore. Heck, you can’t even tell the difference between 3 words and 4. You are using intellectual dishonesty to attempt to prove a specious and insulting point, and frankly you’re going down in flames.
maybe it’s just me, I’m feeling an intense deja vu right now, bringing me back to the arguments I used to hear from all of those ‘heathens’ (i keed, i keed,) who used to tell me I worshipped saints - I venerated them, I didn’t worship them. It was just completely ridiculous to argue otherwise - God is the big guy, he’s the one to worship, I asked for saints to pray to God for me. Non-Catholics manytimes couldn’t seem to wrap their minds around that one. many of the Christians who felt so strongly about the incorrectness of worshipping saints were usually told this as fact by their own churches, and generally, those other religions weren’t too hep on the Catholic way of seeing things (to put it mildly). I wonder if this was really a debate for clarification (you hold your position pretty strongly, despite those with real life experience claiming you are misinterpreting, wisernow, are any of these views you came with informed by muslims, or did you get all yer info/concepts from christians explaining what muslims think?)
I would like to point out what my Indian friend in HS said: 'How the hell can you Christians say you worship one God and say Hinduism is polytheistic? I worship different facets of god, and they all have different personas - you worship three different people but say you are monotheistic because they are all magically one God despite having three different personas? Your as polytheistic as I am (He understood the Chrisitian concept of the Trinity, he was just pointing out how stuipid it seems to those who were not brought up with the concept).
I guess what I am trying to say is that it don’t really mean squat what you say they are doing in their rituals, your description of what they are doing means nothing compared to the meaning that worshippers put in their actions. If they say they aren’t worshipping the stone, they aren’t, and all of the hand waving you do won’t change that.
IANAM, but from my reading I gather that there is nothing “holy” about the Black Stone, but that it is, indeed, “venerated”. I can easily understand this – it’s a centuries-old physical piece of Muslim and pre-Muslim history, and is associated with many important figures in history, including Abraham and the angel Gabriel. Of course people have respect for it – but that doesn’t mean they worship it. The Kaaba was originally supposed to have housed 360 idols, and they were all shattered.
An interesting aside – since it is said that Gabriel himself was supposed to have brought the Black Stone from heaven, a lot of (invariablt non-Muslim) folks have said “Aha! It must be a meterotite!” There have been articles on this in various specialty publications. IIRC, Popular Astronomy published a lengthy article on the history of the Stone back in the 1940s. In the 1970s the journal Meteorics published a piece by a Muslim astronomer who made the hajj and examined the Stone with a professional and critical eye. (He wrote anonymously, by the way. People are very touchy on this topic.) The verdicts – the Black Stone is emphatically not a meteorite. (Something that believers have never claimed – in fact, I think they believe it detracts from their estimation of the stone by trivializing the traditions about it.)
I am giving only three verses of several for I do not have the energy to search and sift the whole book again. Read the Koran from begining to end, and it becomes evident that the existence of other deities is NOT denied. There is no room for “misinterpretation”.
035.014
PICKTHAL: If ye pray unto them they hear not your prayer, and if they heard they could not grant it you. On the Day of Resurrection they will disown association with you. None can inform you like Him Who is Aware.
SHAKIR: If you call on them they shall not hear your call, and even if they could hear they shall not answer you; and on the resurrection day they will deny your associating them (with Allah); and none can inform you like the One Who is Aware.
046.005
PICKTHAL: And who is further astray than those who, instead of Allah, pray unto such as hear not their prayer until the Day of Resurrection, and are unconscious of their prayer,
SHAKIR: And who is in greater error than he who calls besides Allah upon those that will not answer him till the day of resurrection and they are heedless of their call?
046.006
YUSUFALI: And when mankind are gathered together (at the Resurrection), they will be hostile to them and reject their worship (altogether)!
PICKTHAL: And when mankind are gathered (to the Judgment) will become enemies for them, and will become deniers of having been worshipped.
SHAKIR: And when men are gathered together they shall be their enemies, and shall be deniers of their worshipping (them).
Here are just three of the many sites that give the meaning of the shahada.
one, two , three I agree that your translation also appears on several websites too and the two translations are used interchangeably. That is the reason why it becomes necessary to understand the shahada in a larger context within the Koran. And I have adequately demonstrated in the verses quoted above, that the Koran does NOT deny the existence of other deities. It is worth noting that even if your transaltion is accepted, it does not automatically follow that other deities do not exist. Only that they are not God.
Yes, The Quran acknowledges the fact that some people will pray to something other than Allah. I’m not disputing that. But the Quran makes it clear that these people are wrong, because they are either worshipping something that does not exist at all, or they are worshipping something that is not a God and therefore has no power to help them or to answer their prayers. All of the quotes you have provided relate to polytheists who worship deities other than Allah, and all of the quotes make it clear that such people are wasting their time.
As for the three sites you provided relating to the translation of the Shahada, I can only tell you that they are incorrect. Once again, there are only four words in the beginning of the shahada, and none of them mean “right” or “Worship”.
Two points here.
First of all, if you accept my translation, it does indeed automatically follow that other “deities” do not exist, bacause the Shahada says “There is no God but Allah.” It couldn’t be clearer!
Secondly, “Deity” is another word for “God”, so the second part of your claim makes no sense. According to Islam, other Gods do not exist, because there is only one God.
finally, just to further ad to my point, Surah 112 of the the Quran is Called “Al-Ahad”, which means, “The One-ness”, and is translated as follows:
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Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
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Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
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He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
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And there is none like unto Him.
Pretty unambiguous, wouldn’t you say? Anyway, I hope that’s clear, and I hope you’ll finally accept that Islam does not allow for the existence of more than one God, but then again I’m not holding my breath…
Here are some more verses that convey the existence of “other” deities, but urge not to “worship” them.
To save space, I have taken the liberty of quoting only the relevant portions from the verses.
035.014
PICKTHAL: If ye pray unto them they hear not your prayer, and if they heard they could not grant it you. On the Day of Resurrection they will disown association with you. None can inform you like Him Who is Aware.
SHAKIR: If you call on them they shall not hear your call, and even if they could hear they shall not answer you; and on the resurrection day they will deny your associating them (with Allah); and none can inform you like the One Who is Aware.
002.083
YUSUFALI: And remember We took a covenant from the Children of Israel (to this effect): Worship none but Allah;
PICKTHAL: And (remember) when We made a covenant with the Children of Israel, (saying): Worship none save Allah (only)
002.165
YUSUFALI: Yet there are men who take (for worship) others besides Allah, as equal (with Allah): They love them as they should love Allah.
PICKTHAL: Yet of mankind are some who take unto themselves (objects of worship which they set as) rivals to Allah, loving them with a love like (that which is the due) of Allah (only) -
005.072
YUSUFALI: Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
006.056
YUSUFALI: Say: “I am forbidden to worship those - others than Allah - whom ye call upon.”
PICKTHAL: Say: I am forbidden to worship those on whom ye call instead of Allah.
006.064
YUSUFALI: Say “It is Allah that delivereth you from these and all (other) distresses: and yet ye worship false gods!”
PICKTHAL: Say: Allah delivereth you from this and from all affliction. Yet ye attribute partners unto Him.
SHAKIR: Say: Allah delivers you from them and from every distress, but again you set up others (with Him).
010.018
PICKTHAL: They worship beside Allah that which neither hurteth them nor profiteth them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah. Say: Would ye inform Allah of (something) that He knoweth not in the heavens or in the earth? Praised be He and High Exalted above all that ye associate (with Him)!
SHAKIR: And they serve beside Allah what can neither harm them nor profit them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah. Say: Do you (presume to) inform Allah of what He knows not in the heavens and the earth? Glory be to Him, and supremely exalted is He above what they set up (with Him).
There are many more, but I think the point is established that Koran does not deny the very existence of deities other than Allah.
Incidentally, here is the transiletaration of 02:83 above. One may want to match it with the translation and see how “illa Allaha” got translated.
Wa-ith akhathna meethaqa banee isra-eela la taAAbudoona illa Allaha.
Sigh…
Okay. Let’s try this again. Rather than simply highlighting the pronouns and claiming that they support your point, try looking at what all of those quotes are actually saying. People worship all kinds of things - some of them actually exist and some of them don’t. The ones that do exist are not divine, and are not Gods. People may call them “Gods”, or whatever they like, but the Quran makes it clear that they are not divine. Only Allah is divine.
For example, Christians worship Jesus, okay? With me so far? But according to the Quran, Jesus (peace be upon him) is not God. The Quran acknowledges his existence, and honours and respects him, but makes it clear that he is not divine. Some people worship Hindu yogis as divine, or modern-day cult leaders, but as far as Islam is concerned, none of them are actually Gods except for Allah.
All of the pronouns you’ve highlighted refer to whatever it is the people are worshipping, be they people, statues, spirits, ancestors, or whatever. Some of them may exist, but none of them are divine except for Allah, and they are therefore not “deities”.
Therefore, Islam is a Monotheistic faith, because it only acknowledges the existence of one Supreme being. Clear?
Finally, do you now accept my translation of the Shahada as correct?
I am afraid the Koran NEVER says “worshipping something that does not exist at all”. NOT ONCE…NEVER…EVER
The following verses are sufficient evidence that the people in that time, the Qureshis to be precise, did worship Allah as the supreme deity.
23 : 84
Say to them : ‘To whom belongs the earth together with its constituents, if you have the knowledge?
23 : 85
They will say : ‘To Allah!’ Say : Why then do you not introspect?’
23 : 86
Say : ‘Who is the Lord of the seven heavens and Lord of the Transcendent Throne?’
23 : 87
They will say : ‘Such glory can only be Allah’s!’ Say : 'Why then do you not revere Him?"
23 : 88
Say : 'In whose hands lies the control over all things, and He protects everyone while no one can protect anyone against Him - if you have the knowledge?
23 : 89
They will say : ‘Such glory can only be Allah’s!’ Say: 'Why then are you deluded?’
It is thus obvious that Muhammed was not trying to make them believe in Allah. since they already did that and that too as supreme over their other deities. What Muhammed preached was that they stop worshipping all the others save Allah. How can Allah refer to them as “they” and “them” and say things like they should stop worshipping them because they cannot help? Doesn’t it make better sense to say that “Hey…why are you worshipping those deities that do not exist” insteas of asking people to stop worshipping them for whatever reasins? The point I am trying to make is, Islam is therefore NOT a purely monotheistic religion in that the latter rules out even the existence of any entity other than ONE god. While you may continue to argue since it goes against your faith and belief, but I believe I have made my point and given sufficient evidence in support of it.
Disagree. That is your take on it. I do not know about Islam, but according to the Koran, other deities exist but none are to be worshipped save Allah. One cannot say that there are no deities and at the same time say do not worship them because they can’t help you. If “they” do not exist then the second half of the sentence is invalid. Your version that there is NO god but Allah is an attempt to stretch the “monotheistic-like” character of Islam into pure monotheism.
finally, just to further ad to my point, Surah 112 of the the Quran is Called “Al-Ahad”, which means, “The One-ness”, and is translated as follows:
Obviously there cannot be 2 or more Allahs.
Meaning that he was not born from someone nor does he have any sons or daughters.
Which could also be taken to mean. The other deities are less powerful compared to him.
I guess I have made my point and rest my case. No further posts from me on this issue. Thanks everyone.
:eek: As a disinterested yet interested outsider watching this debate, I’m convinced that you’re multiply wrong–from the autobiography error through the error in the chronology of the Koran to the misattribution of polytheism to the Koran. Whatever case you’ve rested appears to me to be thoroughly refuted.
Daniel