Is it fair to only recount Democratic counties? Gore keeps saying he wants the hand recount only to make sure every vote is counted. If that were true, why are the hand recounts only being done in counties where he won a clear majority of the vote already? Does Gore not want a hand recount of votes in counties where Bush had a high percentage of votes? Is Gore basically lying through his teeth when is says he wants the hand recounts because he is concerned about every vote being counted? Is what Gore and the Democrats trying to do here fair?
Those are the only counties that, because of the punch ballots, demonstrated sufficient discrepencies between the first and second counts to justify asking for the hand count.
And I believe this has been stated roughly five thousand, eight hundred and seventeen times already.
What has also been stated is that Bush was free to request recounts in any other counties as well. He didn’t .
stoid
So none of the Repulican counties used punch ballots? Or are you saying only the large Democratic counties experience serious discrepances on the first recount (and large gains for Gore) and that is why they should be counted again?
Oh, I know that. But Gore still could have requested hand recounts everywhere in the state if he really cared about the votes being counted fairly, right?
There was less than one percent difference in the first and second runs in any of these counties. The first count put Bush ahead with less than 2,000 votes, the second count put him ahead with 300 votes. 1,700 votes of over 20,000,000 is a significantly insignificant number. Try .000085% on for size. Even if all 1,700 votes were attributable to Palm Beach County, the discrepancy would be only 3.70%, hardly a significant difference and within acceptable ranges of error. But, possibly, if a third or fourth count can bring the same changes in votes, Gore can win.
Don’t fall for your Party line Stoidelafish, the bait is bad!, the bait is bad!
If there were truly a concern for justice for all, as opposed to justice for the Democrats(the only ones that really count) then yes, Al would have demanded a recount of the entire State. However, from what I read, Al Gore offered this to Bush yesterday and he turned it down, so shame on Bush. (I don’t think Florida law would have allowed it anyway)
I further heard on the news last night that Bush is now requesting that two counties be recounted that fell heavily Republican… too little, too late George, not to mention hypocritical to yell foul for a hand count and legal action and then try to do both. I understand and agree that a hand count leaves more opportunity for error than a machine count, but if it is going to be done and counted, it should be done across the State, not just in the strongholds.
At least then 20,000,000 people would decide the fate of the country, not just a few hundred thousand.
You know, if Florida had counted a little faster, they could have avoided this whole mess by closing shop before California and thus shifting the spot light. Damned media-hungry Sunshine State, as if Mickey weren’t enough.
And aren’t we already sick of both of them and neither has even taken office yet?
It depends upon how you wish to use teh word. A selective recount has tehpotential to bias the overall result, so in that sense it is not fair.
The overall process, however, allows both candidates the same opportunity to request a recount in any county, so in the sense of “fair play”–yes, it’s fair.
They way I understood this situation is that Bush could have asked for a recount within 72 hours of the polls closing. They chose not too, and instead chose to oppose the recounts asked for by Gore. I would imagine that when the second recount went from 17,000 votes down to 300 the Gore people surmised that a hand recount was justified. If I had been Bush I would have asked for recounts myself. Perhaps in a couple of the other close states or at least in Florida. He would have been well within his rights I imagine if those states had similar laws. I would say it is fair in that Bush was advised I’m sure of the Florida state laws governing recounts and chose not to exercise his option. I can understand why when the original machine recount was found to be off by a few hundred votes. But if it was off in Gore’s favor in Democratic counties then perhaps it would have been off in Bush’s favor in Republican counties. I think Bush kind of cut his own throat on this one. He should have asked for recounts himself instead of going to court to block them.
What I think is terrible about this whole thing is finding out just how many votes do get thrown away. On the one hand this has been a lesson to the public that voting is important. But it is also disturbing to know that your vote might get thrown away because the machine won’t accept it for some reason. There’s been a lot of talk about why states hold their elections differently and use different ballots, also how they vary from county to county within a state. The bottom line is that everybody is voting in different ways all over the country, some with more modern methods than others. I don’t see that there can be any kind of uniform voting system because it all boils down to how much money each district has to conduct their elections. And if regular voting isn’t confusing enough then we have the absentee ballot thing. What a mess that is, missing numbers, double ballots, etc. I honestly think that every state should between now and their next major election take a good look at how this function is performed thoughout.
Needs2know
I heard that debunked as a myth on TV last night.
Exactly when did Gore request the hand recounts? If he only had 72 hours, which hour did he make the request in?
Gah …
As to your first point … According to MSNBC, hand counts have already been done in several Republican-leaning counties, resulting in 400 additional votes in the Bush column - which BTW, accounts for Bush’s 300-vote lead and more. They were simply done by last Friday, so the Florida Sec. of State has apparently accepted them as the official vote from those counties. No, I don’t know the name of these counties, MSNBC didn’t provide that info (or I wasn’t paying attention :oops: )
Second, (again from MSNBC), the ballot-counting machines have an error rate of 2-5%. So, if you have a county with 1,000 residents, 20-50 votes are going to be miscounted, on average. If you have a county of 1,000,000, 20,000-50,000 votes are going to be miscounted. The three counties in question, all predominately Democratic, are also three of the most populous counties in Florida. They are more likely to have a large number of machine-miscounted votes. Hence the xx,000 ballots on which the machine couldn’t read votes for the presidency in Palm Beach County. Dollars to doughnuts most of those xx,000 ballots have votes for the Presidency on it. Why not read them?
Third, sure Gore could have/should have asked for re-counts in all of Florida. Then again, Bush could have/should have too. Both sides are in the wrong here, so it’s a wash.
Fourth, the GOPers are screaming that a machine vote is more accurate. Well, the first (machine) count put Bush ahead by a few thousand. The next (machine) count, as certified, put Bush ahead by 300. If the machines were completely accurate, they wouldn’t have gotten different answers in the two counts. Why not let humans have a go?
Sua
Damned media! Thanks for clearing that up j, I hadn’t heard. (The AP had even picked that one up I believe, incredible) Did you hear anything about Bush now asking for 2 counties to be hand counted?
*Good point re: the last minute request, if it was truly a concern of accuracy and not just Democratic accuracy he should have requested the hand count at a minimum early on Friday or requested the entire State instead of waiting until the 11th hour to sneak in a hand count request of four Democratic Counties…IF that is indeed the case. I don’t know.
I don’t think the 72 hour stipulation applied to hand recounts I believe it applied to recounts in general. I know I heard that was the rule but just can’t remember where, perhaps NPR. I imagine once a recount has been asked for it can be asked for more than once and then by hand. What I thought I heard was that Bush had not exercised his option on this.
I also have no idea the exact hour but I believe the Gore camp asked for recounts sometime the next day, probably within 24 hours of the polls closing. At least if my memory is correct they were beginning to recount by then.
I’m starting to get a little confused and as of last night stopped watching MSNBC. (Also cannot stand that loud-mouthed Chris Whats-His-Name. He’s wearing a mike does he have to be so damned loud!) I think I’v just about reached my saturation level on this thing. Decided to watch HGTV instead last night.
Needs2know
And not only that, Needs, why won’t the morons on MSNBC just SIT THE F— DOWN!!! :mad:
Sua
I have no idea when the actual paperwork ws filed for the hand count requests, but Gore’s people stated that they would be seeking hand recounts in some counties pretty much as soon as they hit the ground in Florida. No elevnth-hour tactics, there.
FTR-Only 6,000,000 votes were cast in Florida.
Also, I don’t believe a 3.70% range of error is in anyway insignificant or acceptable in a race this close.
As for the OP, I hope the Florida Supreme Court takes it upon itself to order a statewide handcount. It’s not Gore’s resposibility to look after the interests of the Bush campaign.
I agree with Spiritus that it all depends on what you mean by “fair.”
It’s a shame that the election may be determined by gamesmanship and manuvering, but apparently Gore was entitled by law to ask for hand re-counts in limited areas.
(And county officials are entitled to refuse or allow such requests at their discretion.)
Also, apparently the Florida Secretary of State is entitled (by law) to disregard results that come in after a certain time. It seems likely (to me) that she will exercise her discretion to help Bush.
I suppose that the problem is that the laws at issue can work unfair results. Still, there’s a lot to be said for following the law, since most (all?) extralegal solutions would favor one candidate over another, and seem even more unfair.
I think it’s a little iffy to hand-count ballots in some counties and not others. You can say that only some counties were close enough to have a recount make a difference, but it’s the total state popular vote that decides to whom the electoral votes go. So shouldn’t everything be recounted?
I’m not a Bush or Gore fan, but I think the argument of “Every vote counts” seems to be being applied a little selectively.
And then there’s this: http://live.altavista.com/scripts/editorial.dll?ei=2312243&ern=y
What’s up with that? Now someone doesn’t even have to vote? One definitely can’t make an argument against hand-counting the entire state now, could one?
HEHEHEHEHE
You’re right Elmer, Where did I get 20,000,000 votes from?
1,700 of 5,820,000… .00029% still insignificant, but less insignificant than before.
I agree, it is not up to Gore to look after Bush’s interests, but if he shouts from a greater-than-thou soapbox that he is doing this to make ‘every vote count’, then we factually minded people should acknowledge that he means ‘every Democratic vote’ when he only wants every vote in Counties that he carried to count.
Wouldn’t it be cool if Florida was thrown out and it goes to Congress and they vote in a Pres and VP from opposite Parties just to piss everyone off even more. It could happen… Democratic one vote advantage in the Senate and Republican control of the House. Wouldn’t it be cool… Gore/Cheney? Or would it be Bush/Lieberman? Which house votes for which office?
House for prez, Senate for VP (the easy way to remember is the VP is also the President of the Senate).
BUT supposedly – and I still don’t belief this – if Florida does not vote Gore wins, unless Bush challenges the votes in enough states that Gore won to tie them up in knots too. As far as I am concerned, the way it *should]/i] work is that if no one gets 270 it goes to the house, not merely half of what ever states decide to bother voting in the college.
From MSNBC
[emphasis mine]
Not anymore. Gore did propose a statewide hand recount today. No word yet from the Bush team about it, but they have said in the past that a statewide recount would be unacceptable.
Bush needs to be careful about how he plays this one. He could come out winning the race, but looking like a colossal jackass.
Dr. J
OK, I get it now. The Gore camp did float this idea out there, then deny it, then they decided it would work to their advantage. Beside the fact is that Gore knows he has absolutely no legal way to actually have a hand recount done at this point – it is well past the 72 hour deadline. The election ended at 5pm on Tuesday. Etc. He might as well be offering the moon.
Of course, Bush’s response was that this would be taking a flawed process statewide. Which souns reasonable. But I guess this is kind of a dead thread at this point.