I assume you mean the Palestinians. But why have they any greater obligation than the Israelis have to renounce the use of violence?
It’s not violence that is the problem, it’s deliberate and very blatant violence directed only at civilians, with the intent of blowing them up (with shrapnel, nails dipped in rat poison, and other completely insidious methods,) not destroying their houses with advanced notice, setting up checkpoints that inconvenience people or building an ugly wall. Terrorism. The Israeli government should renounce violence (in other words, just sit by while its civilians get blown to bits?)
The Arab Muslims believe they have a religious obligation to rid the Middle East of Jews. This they will try their damndest to do.
Ahh, you are one of the believers in the “cycle of violence” which media constantly refer to. Well, I would bet a hard-earned dollar (86 cents US) that if the violence completely stopped on the Palestinian side, much more would be gained than if it continued. Israel would stop retaliating and then and only then could progress be made to negotiate a just solution.
I agree. But if I were a Palestinian, I might worry that if the violence stopped, the Israelis would feel no pressure and see no reason to get out of the Territories, ever. Palestinians do not commit acts of violence against Israelis out of pure malice, but because the status quo is intolerable to them and acts of terrorism seem to them to be the only effective tools they have to change it. What other tools do you think they have?
It would help immensely if they had representatives who abhored the use of violence and terrorism as a means to achieve their goals and actually did something concrete to stop it…but they don’t.
Then the burden falls on the Israelis, who do have such representatives, and the power to vote them into office at any time.
[quiote]
I agree. But if I were a Palestinian, I might worry that if the violence stopped, the Israelis would feel no pressure and see no reason to get out of the Territories, ever.
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You mean like in 1998, when Israel had a moderate government and agreed to negotiate a withdrawal from 98% of the occupied territories, including allowing shared control of Jerusalem? An offer that was so astonishingly generous that even Bill Clinton couldn’t believe Israel made it? The one that got Ehud Barak in trouble with the Israeli people because they thought he offered too much?
You know, the one that Yasir Arafat walked away from, and refused to even consider it at as a starting point for negotiations, choosing instead to start the second intifada?
The Palestinian’s best chance at regaining control of the occupied territories has always come during times of peace when Israelis feel less threatened. What has the Intifada gotten the Palestinians? A hardened Israeli population, a hard-line conservative government, a wall, and routine military strikes into Palestinian territory.
If you think that Palestinian violence is the road to a successful state, you’re just as deluded as the Palestinian leadership appears to be.
You want a roadmap to peace in the Middle East? Here it is: Palestinians end the intifada, and create a new political pact which forbids violence against Israeli citizens. All Arab nations explicitly recognize the right of Israel to exist, and enter into binding agreements to that effect. Jordan has already done so, and Israel has no beef with them.
The negotiations for a peaceful middle east can include a Palestinian state with borders similar to those offered by Israel in 1998, on a gradual basis that both sides agree will end if terrorist attacks against Israel begin again.
For good measure, the Arab states can announce that Hamas is an illegal terrorist operation and cease all aid and support for it, and assist the U.S. or Israel in dismantling it. Iran and Syria should eliminate all financial and military support for Hezbollah.
The U.S. can play a role here by assuaging Israeli’s fears about the indefensibility of its borders by giving it a very strong security guarantee. The Arab world can have the same thing, including assurances by the U.S. that it will not let Israel take back disputed territories.
On Israel’s side, it is going to have to dismantle the settlements and control its own radical hardliners. There should be a fixed timetable for this, and punishments set out if it does not follow them. Either sanctions, or withdrawal of U.S. military aid, or some such.
The U.S. role should start from the position that terrorism is wrong and should be fought, that the Palestinians deserve a viable state, and that Israel has the right to exist and the right to live in peace without the threat of terror. Within those boundaries the U.S. should remain a neutral party.
There’s your roadmap. The problem is, there is one side that will never agree to those terms, and its not Israel.
Suppose the first part of that happened, but not the second? If the Palestinians alone made a commitment, without any change in the positions of the Arab and Islamic states, could there still be a roadmap to peace?
They don’t have that already?
Won’t happen, at least until after the next Israeli election. When is the next Israeli election, anyway? And is there any chance Sharon and Likud can be turned out of power?
At this point I don’t really understand what you are saying.
Should Israel alone be responsible for the cessation of violence in the Territories?
Should Israel unilaterally vacate Gaza and the WB with an expectation that peace will spontaniously burst forth forever and for all time in the Middle East and they’ll never again have to fight another war?
You’re making it seem that there is only one side to this issue. You can’t be that deluded.
The point is that no matter what else happens, there will be no cessation of violence in the Territories so long as Sharon and Likud are in office.
Yes, they should. Even if peace does not spontaneously burst forth forever, both the Israelis and the Palestinians would be better off and safer.
From the BBC. Attacks from before and after this period available on request.
2003
4 October: A suicide bomber blows herself up in a packed Haifa restaurant, killing at least 19 people including three children.
9 September: Two separate suicide attacks leave at least 15 people dead and scores wounded in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.
In the first attack, at least eight people were killed - including the bomber - at the entrance to the Tzrifin Israeli Defence Force base, near Tel Aviv.
Hours later, a bomb attack outside a popular cafe in west Jerusalem left at least seven dead.
19 August: A suicide bomber wrecks a bus in Jerusalem, killing at least 20 people and injuring up to 100 others, in a serious blow to peace efforts. Hours later, Israel halts the handover of West Bank towns and cuts off contacts with Palestinians officials.
12 August: At least four people are killed and dozens injured in two suicide attacks by Palestinian bombers in Israel and the West Bank.
In the first attack, an explosion rips through a shopping centre in the central Israeli town of Rosh Haayin near Tel Aviv, killing two people and injuring at least 10 others.
Shortly afterwards, another suicide bomber blows himself up among a group of Israeli soldiers at a bus stop outside the Jewish settlement of Ariel, in the West Bank.
19 June: A suicide bomber kills himself and an Israeli man, owner of a grocery shop in Sde Trumot, a small village a few kilometres from the West Bank in northern Israel.
11 June: Sixteen people are killed in a bus bomb in Jerusalem, in the first suicide attack since US President Bush’s peace summit a week before. It follows an Israeli air strike on 10 June aimed at killing Hamas leader Abdel-Aziz al-Rantissi in Gaza.
Within an hour of the bus attack, Israeli helicopters launch another attack in Gaza, killing several people, reportedly including a top militant.
19 May: At least three people are killed and 18 injured in a suicide attack on a shopping mall in the northern Israeli town of Afula. The bomber is reported to have been a woman.
Earlier, three Israeli soldiers in the Gaza Strip are injured when a suicide bomber riding a bicycle detonate explosives strapped to his body.
18 May: Seven people are killed when a suicide bomber blows himself up on board a bus in northern Jerusalem. A second attacker kills himself minutes later as emergency crews arrive but no-one else is seriously hurt. The blasts come hours after Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon held the first talks with his Palestinian counterpart, Mahmoud Abbas, better known as Abu Mazen.
17 May: A Palestinian suicide bomber disguised as a religious Jew kills an Israeli man and his pregnant wife in the West Bank town of Hebron.
An injured man is carried from the scene of the Tel Aviv cafe blast
An attacker targeted a popular nightspot in Tel Aviv
30 April: A suicide bomber attacks a popular cafe in Tel Aviv, just hours after a new Palestinian cabinet wins approval under Abu Mazen who has pledged to crack down on militants. At least four people including the bomber are killed and dozens more injured.
24 April: An Israeli security guard is killed as he confronts a Palestinian suicide bomber outside a railway station in the town of Kfar Saba.
5 March: A powerful bomb blast ripped through a bus in the northern Israeli city of Haifa, killing at least 15 people. About 40 people were wounded, some of them seriously, in the explosion.
5 January: At least 23 people are killed and 100 wounded when two suicide attackers set off charges in crowded, parallel and adjacent streets during rush hour in Tel Aviv, echoing an attack in July 2001.
2002
21 November: A suicide bomber blows himself up on a packed rush-hour bus in west Jerusalem, killing 11 passengers and injuring scores more.
21 October:A suicide bomber drives a jeep packed with explosives into a bus near Pardes Hanna, killing at least 14 people, as well as the bomber.
10 October: A suicide bomber kills himself and a woman in an attack on a bus stop near Tel Aviv.
19 September: A suicide attack on a bus in Tel Aviv kills five and injures more than 50. A sixth victim - a medical student from Scotland - dies from his injuries the following day.
18 September: A six-week lull in suicide bombings comes to an end, when an Islamic Jihad militant kills himself and an Israeli policeman in the north of the country.
4 August: At least 10 Israelis are killed in a series of violent incidents, including a suicide bomb attack on a bus near the northern town of Safad.
31 July: A bomb in the students’ cafeteria at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem kills seven - five of them Americans - and wounds more than 80.
30 July: A suicide bomber kills himself and wounds several Israelis in a fast-food store in Jerusalem.
17 July: A double suicide bomb attack near the old Tel Aviv bus station leaves five dead, including the two bombers, and injures about 40.
19 June: Eight people die including the bomber and 35 are injured in a suicide attack at a bus stop in the French Hill neighbourhood of East Jerusalem.
18 June: A suicide bomber kills himself and 19 civilians in a bomb attack on a bus in southern Jerusalem.
5 June: At least 14 are people killed in an attack on a bus at Megiddo junction, near the border with the West Bank. A suspected suicide attacker is believed to have driven up in a car behind the bus and detonated a bomb.
19 May: Three Israelis killed and nearly 30 injured when suicide bomber disguised in Israeli army uniform blows himself up at market in Netanya.
7 May: Suicide bomber attacks social club in the town of Rishon Letzion, killing 16 people and injuring more than 50. The attack was claimed by the armed wing of Hamas.
12 April: A suicide bomb attack at a bus stop in West Jerusalem, kills the bomber and six other people and injures about 50 more.
10 April: A suicide attack on a bus travelling near the Israeli city of Haifa kills at least eight people and injures dozens more.
31 March: Bomber attacks restaurant in Haifa, northern Israel, killing himself and 14 Israeli Jews and Arabs. On the same day, another bomber kills himself and wounds four people in an attack on an office for paramedics at the Jewish settlement of Efrat, south of Bethlehem.
27 March: In the Israeli resort of Netanya, a bomber blows himself up at a hotel, killing 28 Israelis celebrating Passover. The attack claimed by the armed wing of Hamas was the deadliest since the beginning of the uprising.
20 March: Seven people killed in a suicide bomb attack on a bus carrying mainly Arab labourers near the northern town of Umm el-Fahem.
9 March: At least 11 people killed and 50 injured in suicide bomb attack on a crowded cafe in west Jerusalem, near the official residence of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.
2 March: Nine people killed including two babies, and 57 injured after suicide bomb attack in an ultra-Orthodox area of Jerusalem.
27 January: Two people - one a female suicide bomber - die in an attack in a busy shopping area of central Jerusalem.
2001
2 December: A Palestinian suicide bomber blows up a bus in the northern coastal city of Haifa, killing 15 people and wounding more than 100 others.
1 December: Twelve people, including two suicide bombers, are killed in an attack on a Jerusalem shopping centre.
29 November: At least four people die in a suicide bomb attack on a bus in the northern town of Hadera. Islamic Jihad claim responsibility.
9 September: Three people are killed in a suicide bombing at a crowded railway station in the town of Naharia. The bomber is the first Israeli Arab to carry out such an attack.
9 August: Fifteen people are killed and about 90 others injured in a suicide attack on a busy restaurant in the heart of Jerusalem. Hamas admits responsibility.
1 June: Suicide bomb attack on a disco in Tel Aviv leaves 21 people dead and more than 60 others injured. Islamic Jihad claim responsibility.
18 May:Five Israelis are killed and around 100 injured when a suicide bomber belonging to Hamas blows himself up outside a shopping centre in Netanya.
28 March: Three people killed and several others severely injured in a nail bomb attack near a bus stop close to the central Israeli town of Kfar Saba. Hamas admits responsibility.
2000
22 November: Two Israelis killed and 55 wounded by a car bomb that explodes during the rush-hour in northern town of Hadera.
2 November: Two Israelis killed by a powerful car bomb at central Jerusalem’s Mahane Yehuda market, a frequent target of attacks.
Some of that stuff’s on the Wik too. I was trying to focus on just this year. Hamas is just beginning to begin to get a little more reasonable . . . and Israel isn’t. Bad response.
Guess what: You shouldn’t be surprised to hear me say this, but here’s the Paul Fitzroy Peace Plan:
The “Palestinians” get the hell OUT of Israel’s territory (yes, that includes Gaza and the West Bank.) The whole middle east is inhabited by Arab Muslims, let the Jews have Israel which is miniscule even with Gaza and the West Bank. They liberated that land in a defensive war; it’s theirs to do with what they please. Throw the Arabs out. Ethnic cleansing? YES, for God’s sake. Just get it over with and stick them in Jordan and Egypt where they came from in the first place.
Not even the Israelis actually claim the Territories as part of Israel, Paul.
And any attempt to “ethnically cleanse” the Palestinians would lead to regional war and bloodshed way beyond anything seen in 1948, 1967 or 1973. Maybe beyond anything seen between 1939 and 1945, if you take my meaning.
Tell me more about that concept. Last I heard, there were thousands of people moving to settlements in those “territories” on the grounds that they are Jewish land.
Oh, and I love the Holocaust reference. Very high-class.
I wasn’t even thinking of the Holocaust. Compared to the general carnage of WWII – in the European Theater alone – even the Holocaust was a sideshow. And that’s the kind of carnage that would happen if anyone touched a match to the MENA powderkeg. And any attempt to deport the Palestinians to countries that almost certainly would not be willing to accept them would do just that.
There are a few “Greater Israel” psychos who regard the Territories as “Jewish land,” but that’s not the position of the government, not even under Sharon.
And where do you get that crap about sending the Palestinians to “Jordan and Egypt where they came from in the first place”? News flash, Paul: There were Arabs living in Palestine before the Zionist movement even got started. There were Jews too, but they were a minority. The bulk of the population was made up of people who might have been – almost certainly were – partially of Jewish descent, but whose families had converted to Islam, intermarried with Arabs, and become thoroughly assimilated to Arab culture centuries before. They were not immigrants from Jordan or Egypt.
Brainglutton said:
This is an absolutely amazing statement. For your information, about 40 million people died in the entirety of WWII including all theaters and all civilians. Of that number TWENTY PERCENT died in the Holocaust.
Sideshow. Nice.
The Psychos that you refer to would include any believer in the Old Testament, Jewish or Christian. Looks like there are quite a few of said “psychos” running around, in that case.
There was no seperate area that Arabs acknowledged as “Palestine” back then in any case. Those Arabs living in those areas mostly came from Egypt, Jordan, and Syria (made-up nations created by England and France anyway,) and considered themselves Syrians, Jordanians, or just Arabs, never ‘Palestinians.’ That whole term is a joke.
In Israel’s War of Independence, when the entire Arab world attacked the tiny state of Israel, determined to push the Jews into the sea, all of the Arab states told the United Nations that the Land of Israel was part of southern Syria.
In the 1948 war, Egypt invaded and occupied Gaza, and Jordan invaded and occupied Judea, Samaria and Jerusalem. Why didn’t they create an independent “Palestinian” state then? If there is truly a Palestinian people who had been there for a long time already, where were they then? Why only when Jews took over did they insist on self-determination for their phony people?
Any claim to the Territories as “Jewish land” based on the Old Testament is psychotic, Paul, no matter how many people subscribe to the idea.
The period under discussion would have been the Ottoman Empire. What the Turks called the area I don’t know and is irrelevant. The people who lived there, lived there.
Cite? From what I know of history, they were people whose ancestors had been living there as long as anybody could remember – and maybe from the time of King David.
Irrelevant. “Two wrongs,” etc.
The point is not that the Palestinian people had any sense of national identity as Palestinians before Israel was created. They didn’t – they might have identiified themselves by tribe or family, or simply as Arabs or Muslims. The point is that whoever they are and however they name themselves, Palestine is at least as much their homeland as it is the homeland of Jews whose ancestors left during the Roman Empire or earlier and then, in the 19th Century, got the idea they should “return.”
Look, the two of us will never agree on this issue. I don’t want to argue about it anymore because essentially it comes down to religious belief, which is a lousy thing to argue about. If you think Judaism is psychotic, I can’t prove or disprove that statement, so…
Also, the topic has shifted from the moral justification of using car bombs to territorial issues about Israel, so I guess we should just return to the original issue. My position on that, by the way, is that I support the use of car bombs against Muslim Terrorists. In fact, I think they should open up more car dealerships in Gaza and the West Bank specifically for the purpose.