Is it OK to be homophobic ?

Great Debates
101

Allow me…

You have the right to hold any opinions you care to hold. It’s considered good courtesy to extend to others the right to hold contrary opinions, and to ensure that your opinions have some vague correlation with factual reality.

You do not have the right to express your opinions in ways calculated to create hostility against others, or to attempt to enforce your opinions on others.

IMHO, Power station is not homophobic as that term is customarily used today, but rather a person to whom the envisioning of two males having sex causes extreme “yuck factor.” While this may meet one of the dictionary definitions of “homophobia,” it does not constitute the behavior condemned by the more common use of the term.

In short, so long as he is not attempting to condemn gay people for having sex or to require them to refrain from sex because the idea of them doing it grosses him out, he’s more than privileged to find the idea of them having sex repulsive.

A thought for you folks: Whatever your personal orientation, are you not grossed out by envisioning Jesse Helms engaging in anal sex (in either role)? If this is the case, can you condemn Power station for stating his personal tastes?

On the other hand, his later post suggesting that gay people ought to keep closeted (I assume that’s what “keeping it private” meant) to avoid triggering his repulsion is attempting to regulate the behavior of others on the basis of his own opinions, and therefore wrong.

102

He didn’t just say that he thought gay sex was “yucky.” He also said that gays should not be allowed to marry or adopt. That makes him a bigot, and scum that should be treated like such.

The world will be better when he and all those like him have died.

Kirk

103

Kirk, I understand “New Gay Rage”, but this kind of thing is really counterproductive to basically any attempt to enlist any support for the gay rights movement from any sector other than gays. And, if truth be known, it turns many gays off to the extremist opinions and the segments that hold them, too.

We need straight support. We need as wide of support as possible. No revolution was ever fought on the home ground of the oppressor that wasn’t supported by significant segments of the otherwise oppressing group. In a country in which majority rules, it really does help to have some sympathy within the majority population. And the kind of extremism above doesn’t help to engender any sympathy. Trust me on this.

jayjay

104

Anyone who won’t stand against bigotry and spit in the face of people like POWER, with his bigotted and evil agenda, is not an ally worth having.

**

Sure, from decent people. Power doesn’t qualify as a decent person. Anyone who supports the descrimination against gays by the Federal and State governments in regards to marriage and adoption is a bigot. They are filth.

And the world would be better without bigots. Ergo, the world would be better without them.

They are a dying breed. More and more, straight people, especially younger ones, support equality. It is filth like POWER who continue to block the road. I just think if they want to throw themselves in front of the train of progress, we shouldn’t bother to hit the brakes.

Kirk

105

No. However, there is a cardinal difference between not agreeing with someone (such as with their religious beliefs) and supporting State-sponsored oppression of said beliefs. In this case, the question is whether it makes one a bigot to oppose gay marriage and gay adoption. This is far different than simply not being a member of other religions (I think a comparable example would simply be not being gay).

It is not bigoted to say “I don’t know why you would want to sleep with someone of the same sex, and I can’t agree that people of my gender are sexually attractive to me”.

It is bigoted to make generalities, such as “all Christians are stupid and can’t think for themselves” or “all homosexuals are promiscuous”. These are not concerned with the self but rather with making assumptions about others. I believe that it is even worse to extend these generalities to social policy. Examples of this would be not allowing black people or women to vote, or wishing to outlaw an otherwise lawful and benign religious practice.

Are objections to gay marriage and adoption bigoted? Yes, if they are based on bigoted views, and I believe they are. Is there an objective reason against gay marriage? I have only seen such an objection use generalities and personal beliefs (including religious beliefs). This, I would say, is bigoted. The arguments against gay adoption (straight couples are ‘better’, gay couples aren’t as committed, etc.) also fall back on such generalities. Hence, while such a belief is not necessarily bigoted in and of itself, it is nearly always seen as a symptom of bigotry.

Bigotry or prejudice does not have to mean out-and-out hatred. Bigotry against gay folks is most often seen as a discomfort (“I don’t want to think about what they do in bed” or “I’m not homophobic, but I don’t think gay people should be able to adopt children because children should not be exposed to that lifestyle”). I believe this is where opposition to gay marriage and gay adoption comes from – not from any cartoonish figure like Fred Phelps.

106

Moderator’s Note: Kirkland1244, do not “flame” other posters in Great Debates. If you just have to vent your feelings, you should open a Pit thread. In Great Debates, you need to address the arguments of other posters, not attack the posters themselves.

107

Count me out, then, Kirk. I’m not willing to unreservedly label a group as ‘filth’ or ‘evil’, even if I don’t agree with their views or (in this case) find that their views are unloving and intolerant.

Is this not the sort of behavior that you oppose? Shouldn’t a person be able to ask questions and change their mind? POWER didn’t come in railing about how gays should be sent to concentration camps. Instead, POWER asked a question and presented some personal views. I don’t agree with POWER, but that doesn’t mean I’m willing to jump to such conclusions.

I was raised in a conservative Lutheran family. My beliefs then were not the same as they are now. At that time, I was generally pro-life (as I had been taught) and I had been taught that homosexuality was frowned upon by ‘good Christian people’. Though I don’t have a clear recollection, it’s very possible that I might have posted something to what POWER said.

I did, as you probably realize, later change my mind about these and many other things. This was due to experience, questioning, and a lot of thought. Do you think I would have come to be a person who is as strongly in favor of gay rights as I am if I had asked about the topic and been viciously attacked?

Do not be so eager to excise people from society. I would say that your posts seem to show a great deal more hate than POWER_station’s did. POWER is guilty of ignorance, yes; it is far better to destroy ignorance by educating a person than simply getting rid of them.

108

What fluiddruid said.

I, too, come from a traditional Christian family. I was a “late in life” baby, and my parents were even older and more “traditional” than my friends’ parents. My dad (especially) had a homophobic streak in him (as many from his generation did, alas). I was raised with that. As a teenager, I ignorantly echoed that sentiment. Not that I really thought about it that deeply - I just parroted what I’d heard at home.

But a few years of college, and encountering a diverse collection of people changed all of that. I am ashamed to think I was so stupid as to think the way I did when I was a kid. I haven’t given up all of my “traditional” Christian views, but I have decided that it isn’t very “Christian” to treat anyone like crap. Especially people who get more than their fair share of crap as it is.

I didn’t come to these realizations overnight. It took time. It required that I see some things for myself - that gay people are no different than anyone else, and that to treat them like crap is evil.

Had I met a bitter and angry person (such as you) when I was a teenager, it would have only served to prolong the learning process I had to go through. You would have taught me nothing, other than I didn’t want to be around people like you. In fact, if I had a different temperament, a negative encounter with someone like you might have cemented a prejudice.

So, nice going. Keep it up. You’re really helpng. :rolleyes:

109

Well…since this isn’t the Pit, I probably shouldn’t refer to anyone as “angry and bitter”. Just to be on the safe side, I’ll respectfully retract those comments.

110

Of course I’m angry. I’m being oppressed by a government dominated by “people” like POWER. Those who oppose equality for others do not deserve equality themselves. Nor do they deserve to be treated with respect, or decency. Decency should reserved for decent folk.

111

Kirkland, I can understand your anger. However, by blatantly dehumanizing and demonizing those who express an (albeit ignorant and somewhat intolerant) attitude, you are not helping your situation. Foaming at the mouth when someone comes with a question and a (while, I believe, unfair) relatively commonplace opinion is not going to win hearts and minds.

For better or for worse, you have to share this planet with POWER_station and myself and many other people who will not feel exactly as you do on every issue. The answer to obvious differences in opinion and even to blatant intolerance is not violent opposition. If you are unwilling to discuss the issue and instead instantly judge a person who exhibits ignorance on a topic, you are not helping. Rather as jayjay said – you are causing a problem and turning people off. Certainly if I did not have such established and ingrained opinions about this issue, you certainly might have swayed me – and not towards your point of view.

Lastly, I find your attitude that you have the moral right to take away rights and revoke equality for individuals like POWER incredibly naive and selfish. Do you not think that those who are adamantly anti-gay-rights do not feel the same righteous indignation as you do? Do you really think that the way of the world (some choosing who has the rights) would only work out if you, rather than your neighbor, was doing the choosing? Would you like to bring about your own version of the Red Scare, in which people who have opposing views are rooted out and exposed, and their rights violated? Practice what you preach. I agree that it is not fair that gay people are not accorded full equal rights, but being right (in my opinion or in yours) does not give you a license to carry out an inquisition.

112

And coddling the enemy doesn’t win wars.

**

Maybe, maybe not. I suppose, technically, I could afford to buy myself a small county in Alaska, move out there after graduation and live my life with ease and not have to put up with people like POWER. Or I could, like so many gay short people, try to take over the world, and eliminate those who aren’t like me (oooh, my megalomania likes that option, except for all the killing).

Or I can wait. Because his world is dying, as are his disgusting attitudes and bigotted opinions.

**

What good could come from sullying myself by speaking to the likes of POWER? They are my enemies. Not only that, they are the enemies of all decency, and should be treated as such.

**

Anyone who would even consider agreeing with POWER is not much better than POWER himself.

**

Then you wouldn’t be much of a person.

**

I wouldn’t take rights away from POWER, though it would be tempting to discourage the inbred types who think like him from voting… perhaps a $100 poll tax. Yes, I would support a poll tax. But that’s about it.

What I said was that he doesn’t deserve his rights, because he works to deny rights to others.

**

The world would certainly work better if I were in absolute control. Again, meglomania (how the hell do you spell that, anyway?) runs deep.

**

No, that would be expensive. It would be easier just to put something in the water that’s piped out to the masses that makes them docile and unintelligent.

Kirk

113

You’ll have to pardon me, Kirkland, but I have trouble taking you seriously.

I am guessing (by your reference to graduating soon) that you are still quite young. Such extreme, absolute attitudes will not carry you far into adulthood without a world of pain and disappointment. (And yes, I figure that you’re going to say that you are already experiencing pain and disappointment. And? You want to add even more layers of pain to your life?)

But, oh well. Make your own choices. You can choose to despise everyone who doesn’t fall neatly into lockstep with your views right away. But please don’t be amazed if you don’t get any positive responses or reactions from your attitude.

I assume that’s not what you are aiming for anyway - to “win” anyone over? Because the way things are going now, there’s not a snowball’s chance of that ever happening.

114

Thanks, fluiddruid… you’re absolutely right - I guess that’s what I was thinking all along but had some trouble saying. Your posts are amazing… FWIW, you have a new fan :slight_smile:

Mike

115

Call it a philosophical difference in activism, but I’ve always thought that more conservative/homophobic people’s minds can be changed by meeting and interacting with gay people just living their lives than by screaming and ideological mastrubation.

116

I love The Onion. :slight_smile:

Gay-Pride Parade Sets Mainstream Acceptance Of Gays Back 50 Years

117

Fenris, you rock!

118

KIRKLAND –

The attitude you deplore is the very attitude you display. I wouldn’t think the intoleration and naked hatred illustrated by these comments would be an attitude you’d like to mainstream America to share. Because when it does, people end up beaten up and left to die tied to barbed-wire fences. And the people suffering and dying from such hatred aren’t those of us who are straight.

119

I hate to say it, because I hate to write someone off, but you folks aren’t going to get through to Kirk. There is a very small ultra-extremist faction in the gay population that is firmly convinced that if any member of the general population is not naturally pro-gay from birth, they’re enemies and should be shunned (if not shot).

I’ve actually been called a gay Uncle Tom on certain message boards because I defended the straight members (Showtime’s Queer as Folk boards, for example) from verbal attacks from the extremists. I was basically forced to turn my back on the community of fans of a show which I love because the stress of watching people who should know better become looking-glass versions of their oppressors was too much for me on a regular basis.

I’m sincerely hoping that this is all “New Gay Rage” and that Kirk will eventually come to his senses and moderate his worldfilter a little. Having read his postings on the Pizza Parlor before (I presume) he came out, I think that underneath it all, he’s a good guy. But it’s being drowned out right now. And that’s sad.

jayjay

120

Eh, people can change. I had a friend who was sort of homophobic. He felt it was icky, and was against gay marriage and adoption. We sat down and talked, and now, while he still thinks homosexuality is icky, is ok with the idea of gay marriage and gay adoption.

People change, and the first step towards changing is to put aside your emotional feelings towards something and look at it logically. My friend was able to put aside his feelings of ickiness and look at the situation logically, and I’m sure Kirk, if he decides he wants to, will be able to put aside his anger and do the same thing.