Oh gosh. I’m so heartbroken.
Nope. 24.
**
I don’t care about winning anyone over. I jsut want to drive them off the stage. Shut them up or eliminate them, whichever it takes.
Kirk
You know, Jayjay, if I wanted a highly inaccurate and unqualified mental portrait of myself made, I’d waste money on a psychiatrist.
I’d call 24 still quite young- that’s just a personal opinion.
The gay rights movement- heck, any movement- owes a great debt to those who are not “in the community.” Straight people, in other words. And there are legions of people who were more homophobic than Power here who are now great allies.
Do you know what changed them? Someone they knew who was gay. Not someone screaming at them for liberty, but a quieter sort of revolution. I’ve befriended right wingers who have in time softened their stance on homosexuality. Look, the whole point of coming out of the closet in a larger context is to put a FACE to a CONCEPT. It’s harder to demonize those evil queers when you know one of them.
These things take time, and the gay movement, if there is one, cannot afford to alienate people by sounding just like smoke-blowing bigots. Or being smoke-blowing bigots. And who you’re alienating is more than just “the other side”- all of those people in those shades of gray are pretty put off by saying “shut them up or elimate them”
Gay people can’t get their rights alone, and you’re blind if you don’t see that.
Kirk, your ranting makes you look like a gay Fred Phelps because both of you possess a breathtaking amount of hate and intolerance for different points of view. As so many posters here have said, the key to converting homophobes is to act like a mensch, not like a petulant queen having herself a big ol’ hissy fit!
I have had a couple of straight guys tell me that they used to hate gay guys before they met me, but that knowing me had put a human face on their gay boogieman. As Gandhi said, “The best way to destroy your enemy is to make him your friend.”
Stand up for your dignity by all means and call homophobes on their bigotry, but don’t drive potential friends away by maintaining a constant, shrill note of hysteria and hostility.
And from my 40-year-old perspective, 24 is pretty damn young.
He’s doing a bang-up job of alienating at least one of his own people, so to speak. I used to have some amount of respect for you, Kirk. Now I’m done. If you can’t see how you’re turning the other side’s tactics into your own, and you can’t see that it’s just as ineffective for our causes as it is for theirs, then you’re blind. And I’m no seeing-eye dog. Have a nice life.
jayjay
There’s nothing wrong with hating evil people. And those who oppose equality for all Americans are evil to the core of their being. No different than those who opposed equality for blacks, no different than the Ku Klux Klan, no different than those who supported slavery. In fact, you could argue that homosexuality and the way it is treated in America is a form of slavery… we’re forced to pay the same taxes for a government that protects us less than it does straights.
**
Do not ever refer to me using female pronouns.
Kirk
There’s nothing wrong with hating evil people. And those who oppose equality for all Americans are evil. No different than those who opposed equality for blacks, no different than those who supported slavery. In fact, you could argue that homosexuality and the way it is treated in America is a form of slavery… we’re forced to pay the same taxes for a government that protects us less than it does straights.
**
Do not ever refer to me using female pronouns.
Kirk
Oh no. My god. A Parlorite has turned against me. One who posts in such a fine and reputable haven for bigots, Baptists and other vermin. Whatever will I do? Oh, the humanity of it all. I’m lost now…
Whatever.
The worst thing about evil is that is makes its victims evil, too. You see no room for debate, for persuasion, for conversion. You’re good, and anybody who contradicts you is evil.
Grow up.
<Snap queen persona>
Sounds to me like Girlfriend got herself some gender issues. Don’t make me come over there and tell everybody your real hair color!
</snap queen>
Dude, as any DC doper can tell you, I’m a masculine guy in person, but that doesn’t mean I can’t play with stereotypes. In any event, if you think stamping your little foot in a fit of pique and issuing commands makes you look LESS of a queen, honey, you are sadly deluded.
He meant “one of your own” in the sense of being gay, not being a Parlorite, Kirk.
I don’t think that homophobia is intrinsically evil. Certain type of it, yes- Pat Buchanen and Jerry Falwell come to mind- but a lot of homophobia is based on ignorance and can be fixed through simple education. People just don’t know better on account of not having much exposure, and to call someone who has never met a gay person and is against gay marriage but eventually realizes that thinking is utter crap evil is a bit ridiculous.
Yup, that works.
That doesn’t.
But I see something wrong with the presumption that you can tell inerrantly who is evil and who is not.
Unfortunately for many people, their parents and childhood friends cast too long a shadow over their adult lives. You could see their homophobia as a vestige of their upbringing. Many (many, many, many) adults are developed enough to lose that vestige, if given just enough gentle prodding.
People don’t automatically wake up one morning knowing the right thing. And you can’t ever really tell anybody anything. But enough coworkers and neighbors might just be able to make them realize the right thing.
Perfect! You realize, of course, that to legions of fundamentalists in several religions, practicing homosexuals are, definitionally, evil. Now that we’ve established that there is nothing wrong with hating “evil” people, I’m sure you will sit quietly by while the “good” fundies deal with all you “evil” gays.
I mean, surely you can see that the stick you’re flailing around with could all too easily be used on you. That’s the point you appear to be missing, and it’s so obvious that I’m frankly surprised you’re not getting it.
Anyone who doesn’t see that denying equality to everyone is evil can’t be very bright.
And no, I’m not “good.” I am right, on this issue, and most others. But that doesn’t make me good. It’s the cause that’s good, and anyone who stands against it is evil, not because they oppose me personally, but because they oppose equality.
**
Fine. Please do not refer to me using female pronouns. I find it highly offensive. I am not a girl in any sense.
Kirk
I don’t care if they hate me. I hate them.
All I care is that the government does the right thing, and gives everyone equal rights.
Sure, it’ll piss fundies off. Good. I hope it makes them miserable for the rest of their foul and meaningless lives. Those who seek to limit the rights of others deserve to live their lives in misery and abandonment.
Kirk
I know what he meant.
**
“I don’t think that racism is intrinsically evil. Certain type of it, yes- Adolf Hitler and David Duke come to mind- but a lot of racism is based on ignorance and can be fixed through simple education. People just don’t know better on account of not having much exposure, and to call someone who has never met a black person and is against blacks voting but eventually realizes that thinking is utter crap evil is a bit ridiculous.”
Still sound like something you would say?
Kirk
Ah, but that is an action, and you called people evil, not their action. People can do evil, stupid things out of misguided beleifs instead of outright evil. I dislike fundies intensely, but I hold out the hope that they may be persuaded to see the light when guided by sweet reason. You seem willing to lash out and call everybody and everything that offends you evil. That is not mature thinking.
Like it or not, you need the good will of the hetero majority to effect real change in the status of gay people. That’s a hard truth you’ll just have to get used to.
No, you don’t. All you need are five supreme court justices. Even if public opinion is 99-1 against, that doesn’t matter for a damn thing if you can win in the Court. Do you think that equality will come through a change in the hearts of the generally moronic American masses? Don’t hold your breath. Victory will come through a court order.
Kirk
The difference, of course, is that they have the power. You don’t. And in an atmosphere of hatred, it’s not us straight folks who are going to get marginalized or worse. That’s the point.
Ah, you crazy dreamer. As if you’ll get five Supreme Court justices to extend gay rights if the majority of the populace isn’t in favor of it first.
So here’s the plan: You go around spreading hate and simultaneously giving your avowed enemies an excuse to kick your head in (because you are “evil” and it’s okay to hate evil people) while waiting for the generally old, generally conservative, generally white, totally straight Supremes to bail you out. I’m not saying you won’t get your “victory” some day, but my guess is you’ll have died of old age long before it comes.
Though I must say I find your faith in the Supreme Court touching. Naive, but touching.
The government of the U.S. is at the moment composed of many of these fundies who would use your hate and make laws against you. Oh, wait, they already have and will continue to do so. DOMA much?
Yes, I would say that. And let me rephrase just so you further understand the point.
Phobia based on ignorance is not intristically evil. Phobia based on conscious decisions and realizations is. Both can be extremely destructive, but there is a difference.
Well, but that’s exactly what happened. That’s how blacks in this country gained civil rights in the 50’s and 60’s. They managed, by organizing, peacefully protesting, and appealing to basic American values and simple decency, to change the minds of people who had been raised to think of blacks as inferior, and who never really thought about their prejudices until black people started calling for equal rights. Doing that isn’t always emotionally satisfying, and a lot of the time it means putting up with shit and being polite to people whose teeth you want to kick in, and it means repeating the same stuff over and over until it sinks in, but it’s also the best way to get change that lasts.
People do have the opportunity to change and improve, if you let them. A lot of people who are against gay marriage or gays serving in the military really are decent people overall. They’re just wrong about this, and it’s usually because they didn’t think it through or because they’re letting their emotion overpower their common sense. Give them a chance.