- The emails didn’t prove a fucking thing.
- Don’t EVER presume to know anything about what I think or how I might react to anything except your absurd ideas, and this is my last comment to you.
- Get a hobby. Preferably not involving the internet.
After that rant, I think we can assume that your “Trump is much worse” line is only cover-your-ass bullshit. Your blind hatred of, and constant rants about, Clinton and your never-ending apologies for Trump and his Russian friends lead me to believe that you voted for him. You don’t damn her with faint praise-you just damn her, period.
BTW, how you can use the word “corruption” when talking about Clinton and not when talking about Trump just shows how fucking twisted you are.
:dubious: So emails from Donna Brazile with debate questions don’t prove anything to you? I don’t think you are being objective.
You are such a caricature of a hyperventilating “ready for Hillary” liberal that I don’t have to presume anything. You are entirely predictable. If the wikileaks about Donna Brazile had instead been about Trump getting debate questions from the media, you would plaster the Pit, Elections and Great Debates with a dozen new threads about how horrible Trump is.
Says the person who has posted dozens of whiny new thread on the same goddam topic since the election. Trump is going to be our president. Get over it and move on.
There are plenty of really smart people on your side of the argument. You are not one of them. It is becoming increasingly clear to everyone on this board that the reason you keep posting new threads is because you cannot meaningfully respond to the threads you have already started. I hope I am wrong and you are just in the throes of anger, outrage and grief and it is clouding your ability to reason but right now you seem like a tool.
I voted for her in the general election. I hated doing it but the alternative was Trump. If you twist and distort the Democratic process to make yourself the nominee and you can’t even beat Donald bobblehead Trump, they you deserve all the blame for your loss.
If your point is that I dislike Hillary. I am guilty as charged. Is there some reason why I should stop disliking her now that she has handed over the presidency to Donald bobblehead Trump because she insisted it was her turn and twisted the primaries to make sure she became the nominee?
Trump won. Its her fault. Continuing to minimize all the bullshit that she did to bring about the Trump victory is only going to lead to more bobblehead victories in the future.
I call Hillary corrupt because she is.
I have called Trump a lot of nasty things but no one ever pushes back when I do, so there is no argument, debate or conversation to be had. IIRC someone asked me why I don’t like Trump, I responded and no one took issue with anything I said on the matter. Do I have to append a criticism of Trump to all of my posts that criticize Hillary. Is that the lapel pin of SDMB?
The problem is that you’re complaining how high a molehill is while standing at the foot of Kilimanjaro. That’s why you’re getting called out on this bullshit.
I’m going to say this again: the people to blame for Trump’s victory are the people who voted for Trump. You claim he was beatable, yet he beat everyone else. You talk about how Clinton and DWS rigged the system to hand her the win; the RNC system was rigged against Trump, and he still beat all 16 other candidates. The ugly truth is that millions of Americans voted for Trump because that’s who they wanted to vote for.
Maybe a different Democratic candidate might have tipped the balance and won, but that candidate was not Bernie Sanders. I like Bernie but he wouldn’t have beaten Clinton in an “unrigged” primary and he certainly wouldn’t have beaten Trump who rode in on a tsunami of lies and corruption and nastiness separate from whatever comparably tiny ripples of lies and corruption and nastiness Clinton was guilty of. Trump won because Trump won, not because Clinton lost. And until you stop focusing on the small picture and start paying attention to the big one, the rest of us are going to keep calling you on it.
I point out how horrible Trump is and I get no push back. Should I just repeat how horrible he is every time I point out what a shitty candidate Hillary was?
So you think he really is some sort of political genius. :rolleyes:
Prove it. I can prove hillary would have lost because she fucking did.
Trump didn’t win because he got more votes than Hillary. He won because he got a combined 100,000 vote advantage across three or four states that swung the election his way. Those voters were just as likely to vote on Bernie populism as they were to vote on Trump populism. Probably moreso because Bernie wasn’t going around gabbing people by the pussy. What’s Bernie’s big skeleton? he’s a socialist?
Trump won because Hillary lost. And until you stop focusing on how to shift blame away from Hillary where is belongs, I’m going to keep reminding you how myopic you are STILL being even in the face of this mind-shattering loss to a bobblehead.
Face it, you were wrong about everything in this election, more wrong than Adaher is in a bad year and yet you are confident that you couldn’t possibly be wrong about this election being Hillary’s fault. After assuring us that ditching Bernie for Hillary was for the best and to grow up and stop whining because she was going to win the general against Trump (and that is the important thing right?); and now that she lost pitifully (Bernie couldn’t have been much worse), now Trump is a political genius? PFFFT!!!
I will say it again, you can’t lose an election to a bobblehead like Trump and blame anyone but yourself.
No, any more than I think Nigel Farage is. But like Farage he tapped into an extremely nasty undercurrent in the zeitgeist and, noting that this was successful, ramped it up and rode it to victory. He did literally hundreds of things that should have disqualified him and nothing did, not because of Clinton but because the people who voted for him didn’t care. They didn’t care about the offensive and nonsensical comments, they didn’t care about the truth, they didn’t care that by every single metric he was the last person you should elect president; they loved him not in spite of his being a narcissistic asshole but because of it.
He was the right man at the right time for the worst possible reasons.
Now who needs to provide proof? You think there were Trump voters who would have voted for Sanders if only they’d had the chance? Sanders’ populism and Trump’s populism were very different things appealing to very different audiences, and the people who voted for Trump didn’t care about the pussy-grabbing comments.
In America that’s a Godzilla-sized skeleton. Americans react to the word “socialism” the way the actors in Blackadder 3 reacted to the word “MacBeth” - it provokes a spasm of irrational revulsion. Consider how often the right-wing tagged Obama with the label with exactly zero justification. How do you think they’d react to some who actually embraced the label? We’d have had the S-word on heavy rotation for months, and it would have sunk him.
Sanders supporters, like Ron Paul supporters, are an energetic and enthusiastic bunch. And like Paul supporters, they’re a minority convinced that the level of noise they generate means there are a lot more of them than there really are.
Trump also won because all the other GOP candidates lost, even with the RNC against him. Why was that again? Was it because he was a political genius?
Really? Me personally? Don’t think so. But please keep stamping your widdle feet about Hillary.
I never said Trump was a political genius, so perhaps you could stop pretending you’re refuting an argument I didn’t make. As indeed applies to most of the rest of this.
And I will say it again - Trump may be a “bobblehead” but he was a bobblehead a lot of people wanted to vote for. That isn’t Clinton’s fault.
I don’t remember Hillary’s exact post-election speech words, but she said something to the effect of devoting her public life to empowering people and helping young people advance their careers.
I ran a manufacturing company, and like many neophyte business managers, I read about job enrichment and such. I will never forget attempting to accomplish that and having a worker start crying and beg me just to let her do her job. I came to understand that most workers simply want a decent wage and respect. Hillary’s comments helped me understand how out of touch with working people she is. And Obama’s speech was very similar. He gave examples of his constituency, and all were professionals. I can’t speak for Dems in general, but Hillary and Obama are ivory tower elitists and out of touch with the working class. How Trump knew how to resonate is an interesting question. I suspect it had to do with his rubbing elbows with construction workers while he learned the real estate business. I was likewise raised in the privileged class but it didn’t take me long to understand what laborers want once I worked with them. I didn’t have a clue before that.
Just out of curiosity, what did you “read about job enrichment and such.”? What exactly did you try to do to enrich this worker’s job that upset her so? I have seen neophyte managers try to “enrich” their employees jobs by simply giving them more work to do. Why is it that you feel that every worker would react the same way as this one, especially if given a different approach? Also, how old was she? Many younger people don’t want to learn anything for a bit, they think they finished their learning with school, and want to take a break. Older workers may not feel as though it is worth it to put in the effort, old dog, new tricks, all that. I don’t agree with either stance, as I feel learning is a lifelong process, but you can’t force people.
And now that you do “understand what laborers want”, what do you think that is? Is it really to be left alone in their job with no advancement until they are too old to work anymore?
I tried to include the 40-ish woman in designing the process to improve the quality control of her machine operator job, which needed improvement. She just wanted me to tell her what to do differently.
I’m not going to drag out textbooks from my MBA program, but there is a lot written about job enrichment, which anybody can Google, I would imagine.
I don’t think every worker is the same. But I had a lot of close experience with working people and most only wanted cost-of-living raises and to be treated with dignity and respect. The few that were interested in more interesting work, or advancement (I made sure I teased them out), I advanced. Nobody quit my factory.
Once in a while I would find a worker with a superior IQ, but most of the workers had average IQs. Generally (there are always exceptions, of course), people with higher IQs are more curious and interested in enrichment than people with average IQs, and lower. I think that people with above average IQs, but without experience working with people with lower IQs, try to understand them through empathy rather than evidence. That’s the mistake people like Hillary made.
Hillary’s team should have heeded a warning from Mark Twain :
[QUOTE=The alleged Dauphin of France, as quoted in Huckleberry Finn]
Hain’t we got all the fools in town on our side? And ain’t that a big enough majority in any town?
[/QUOTE]
The quote works, but I’m sure you know it’s not about being a fool; it’s about being common. And lots and lots of Hillary supporters were of the same cloth as Trump’s. It’s too bad a multivariate regression analysis can’t be run on all the independent variables to determine which one held the biggest sway. But I vote for “deplorables,” the ultimate outing.
I don’t think it’s really a matter of IQ. In my experience, stupid people have just as many ideas as smart people - *bad *ideas, mostly, but ideas nonetheless. No, what you’re describing is the result of decades of crappy schools and crappy bosses and crappy society in general, all focused on teaching people never to think for themselves. People like that who have reached their 40s are, with some major exceptions, pretty much beyond saving. Just give them their cost of living increase and try to break the cycle with the next generation.
It does sound like that was stuff a bit “above her pay grade”. That seems quite a bit to drop on someone all at once. When I try to teach a new skill to an employee, I don’t tell them that that is what I am doing. I just make sure that the information is presented to them. Gotta be sneaky sometimes, if you are looking to train your workforce.
My experience is that most of the time, most people just want a simple job with simple advancement. But it is very few people that never are looking for it. People get content with what they are doing, but then they get bored.
There is also the fact that they get displaced. You say no one quit your factory. Did you have to lay anyone off as you increased automation and eliminated jobs? Do you think that the people that were laid off would have been better off if they had gotten some level of higher training and advancement when it was offered, even if they didn’t really want to put in the work then?
It is quite possible that Hillary did not connect with the working people. Though I think it is her ambition that blinds her to the problems of the people, rather than her empathy. She has always worked hard to get what she wanted for herself and her community. She never had anything handed to her. So, when she is interacting with people with no ambition, that just want to do their job (that is obsolete and being phased out one way or the other), that aren’t curious, that do want to have things just handed to them without any “work” (I say “work”, not as in the job that they do, but in the work that is necessary to improve yourself and your life), so she doesn’t get that mindset. That people would rather just sit and complain that they aren’t being given what they want in life, rather than proactively taking a course of action that would give them the things that they want in life is an alien mindset to people of her level of ambition.
Yeah, that’s why I said old dog, new tricks.
I don’t agree with that mindset at all. I am almost 40 myself, and find any day that I did not learn something new to be a bit of a waste.
2 of my employees are over 40. One is pretty well skilled, and I honestly don’t have much to offer her as far as development (she knows more about the industry than I do), but she is always reading up on new techniques and stuff on her own, so that’s cool. I have another one that pretty much just wants to come in and shave some dogs for a few hours and go home. She does a good enough job, but it does frustrate me how little she cares about learning any new skills.
Guess which one gets more raises? Guess which gets the better pick of the hours? Guess which one I will keep if I am ever in an unfortunate situation where I need to downsize.
And then guess which one complains more?
That’s just stupid; it’s like saying it was the storm surge that was responsible for your home’s destruction, not the hurricane.
The question is WHY did these people choose Trump over Hillary? A lot of that blame can be fairly laid at Hillary’s feet, or at least at her campaign’s feet. For a whole lot of people, she was an oddly uncharismatic policy wonk who was tainted by association with her husband, as well as someone who is perceived as a dyed-in-the-wool Washington insider. Maybe not just an insider, but something more intimate than that. At any rate, if you think the current government is part of the problem regardless of party, she’s not going to look good to you. On top of that, there are the continual allegations of corruption on her part. Maybe they keep getting squashed, but a lot of people probably think that where there’s smoke, there probably is fire.
Roll all of this together and you get a candidate who is uniquely ill suited to run against a charismatic person whose entire platform consists of “I’m not a politician”. She’s like every political sin rolled together into one person for many people, while Trump is kind of like the opposite of that.
Personally I voted for her anyway, but I didn’t’ like it- it was like choosing whether to eat a cat turd or a hairball. I imagine people with a hair more party affiliation or affection for either candidate found it an easier decision to vote one way or the other.
On top of that, I have a firm conviction that it was far less people voting for Trump or for Hillary as much as it was people voting against Trump or against Hillaryl.
It’s good to know when it was the storm surge, rather than the hurricane that destroyed your home, otherwise, when you rebuild, you may rebuild thinking you are protecting yourself from the winds or the rain or the debris from the hurricane, but since you don’t seem to care that it was actually the flood from the storm surge, your house gets destroyed again.
So, if you would not blame the people that voted for Trump, then who would you blame? It does seem pretty weird that you would blame the people that tried to prevent something, but not the people that actually made it happen.
You can be disappointed that they failed at stopping Trump, I am, and you can help to look into the ways to move forward to prevent such things again. But seriously, the people to blame for trump are the people that put him in office. Blaming anyone else is pretty fucking stupid.
The blame can largely be placed at the conservatives feet for carrying on an anti-hillary campaign for the last 30 years. You blame her that she was accused of scandals? You blame her that people blame the government for not protecting them from their employers and health care industry? You blame her for being associated with Bill Clinton, who presided over the economic boom of the 90’s? You blame her for the allegations of corruption, even though they are pretty much proven to be baseless? You blame her for people being gullible enough to eat it all up?
So, she is every political sin, and Trump is every other sin? How exactly is Trump the opposite? You are claiming that he is not corrupt? That he is not embroiled in controversy? I get the image that you are saying that he was projecting, I just find it hard to imagine people actually falling for that.
Of course, that’s my own failure of imagination, as recent event have shown that there are a large number of people that do in fact fall for such demagoguery.
True that. I had no problem voting for Clinton. She was not my ideal candidate. I actually was pulling for Warren to enter the race, I didn’t really like biden all that much. I voted for sanders because I liked the idea of moving the overton window a bit farther to the left, but I don’t actually think he would have made a very good president, if he managed to win the general, which I have my doubts because of his affiliation with socialism.
But, in the end, I don’t vote for the people, I vote for what the people represents. Honestly, anyone of somewhat below average capability and up could do the job of the presidency. You aren’t actually doing any research or anything, other people do that for you, present you with information and options, and you make decisions based on the best information that you have, that are informed by the ideology that you were elected to represent.
I think you are half right.
I think that most of the people that voted for Clinton voted for her because they thought she would be a good president. The conservatives that voted for her were voting against trump, but I think they were a small minority of clinton voters.
There were not all that many people that voted for trump because they wanted the things that he represented. Yeah, you have your deplorable contingent, but I think (hope) that hillary was estimating high when she said it was about half of trump voters. You then have your single issue voters, that didn’t vote against hillary, so much as the voted against the democrat. Any pro-gun or pro-life voter would have voted for trump to vote against the democrat, whoever that ended up being. Those were the known trump voters.
The rest of the people that voted against clinton weren’t voting against clinton, they were voting against the government. They felt as though the govt was no longer representing their interests, and their voice was not being heard, so they voted to burn it all down. Those are the white, working class americans (which I have spent my life as a part of) that put Trump in office.
If you keep thinking that the reason that Hillary lost is because the country that elected Barack Hussein Obama TWICE over McCain and Romney is horrible and likes horrible leaders then you are never going to understand a goddam thing about this election and you are doomed to repeat the same mistakes.
This was a big fuck you to the establishment Republican and Democrat alike. If Bernie had been running they would probably have used him as their middle finger instead of Trump but we didn’t give them that choice.
The Democratic party nominated a corrupt woman who was giving secret speeches to wall street banks. The same fucking wall street banks that ruined our economy less than 10 years ago. Half those mother fuckers should be in jail but instead they just got record high pay last year while a shitload of Americans are still reeling from the effects of the recession which for many families was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
And what does the Democratic party do? Put up a nominee that gets hundreds of thousands of dollars for giving secret speeches to these same banks telling them how awesome they are. We lost because we nominated Hillary. The next time someone tells me that we have to nominate someone because they are a woman, or an Asian or a Mexican, I will fucking throttle them.
Bernie would have been just as effective an outlet for the electoral outrage at the establishment.
Do you know any trump voters who aren’t perennial Republican voters? I do, and they would have preferred Bernie to either of them. So that may not mean that Bernie would have won but I can’t think of many Hillary voters who wouldn’t have voted for Bernie and i can think of at least some Trump voters who would have voted for Bernie.
I can’t prove that he would have won but I can prove that Hillary lost. And she cheated to put herself in a position to lose.
Really? Worse than black?
I bet Ron Paul could have won this year if he got the nomination.
Circular firing squad. That plus there wasn’t a single one of them that didn’t reek of establishment.
I don’t know. Its been hard to keep track of all the Hillary apologists but generally speaking, yes, the “I’m ready for Hillary” crowd is having a meltdown and calling half the country racist and misogynistic without any self awareness that this is a large part of why they lost the election.
Then how did he beat Hillary unless Hillary is a fucking horrible candidate? Oh, wait, that’s right. The electorate in the swing states that voted for a black dude named Barack Hussein Obama is full of racists and other deplorables.
A lot of people wanted to vote for him because the alternative was Hillary. THAT is Hillary’s fault. Her insistence and that it was her turn combined with her cheating and collusion with the media and the DNC cleared the field for anyone but her. Given a choice between Trump and Bernie, Bernie would have been the choice of a lot of people who voted for Trump. You know who WOULDN’T have come out in droves to defeat Bernie? Gun owners. Just that would have made the difference.
I ask this in total sincerity: is there a connection between my question and your reply?
Worse than a layoff, k9b. Our industry and specific hardware product line was just about the first, if not the very first, targeted by China, in the early '80s. I sold the company as fast as I could after over 100 years in business as a virtual monopoly. Everybody connected with the factory (except, thank God, the biggest shareholder)thought I was crazy, and tried to have me fired. Who would buy that cheap, un-American junk, they said? Answer: everybody. Within two years there was no more factory. The federal government told me that I was the only CEO they knew of in our industry that got out whole. And, no, most of my workers were not prepared for anything but laboring in a factory. Some undoubtedly found similar work elsewhere, but many American factory workers have had a hard time of it since, as we well know.
She was hoping they would be more repulsed by him than by her. She was wrong.