"Is it that the Dems don't understand white, working-class America?" No, that's not it

The BBQ Pit
621

Trump is our POTUS-elect, what is there to normalize? WTF does that even mean in this context?

Normalize the election? Was there something squirrelly about the election? Did he cheat? Did he get debate questions in advance of debates? Then what is there to normalize?

Not just cheating. folks who won’t admit that Hillary lost because she is a shitty candidate. People who would rather blame Jill Stein for the third party vote; or Bernie for contesting her during the primary; or Bernie supporters for not falling in love with Hillary after Bernie dropped out of the race; fucking anything but blame Hillary for being a shitty candidate who insisted that it was her turn.

Yeah Trump sucks. What about it? What about my posts?

What honor?

I’m not defending his honor. I’m calling out people who think its unfair that someone leaked the truth about Hillary and the Democratic party to us. It wasn’t lies, it wasn’t spin, it was death by a thousand cuts. Most of them self inflicted.

WTF are you talking about? I don’t give a shit whether things go well for Trump as long as they go well for our country and that is the difference between you and me. You (like the Republicans when Obama was president) would rather see 4 years of shitty things happening to our country so your side can win in 2020 rather than see good things happen for 4 years even if that means that Trump gets re-elected.

Or should we oppose everything Trump does out of partisanship because that’s what the Republicans did and “what’s good for the goose” and all that? If Trump proposes good things (unlikely), I will support him. If he proposes bad things (far more likely), I will oppose him. But the fucking hyperventilation is as bad as we saw when Obama got elected. I mean for fucks sake, we have people on this board seriously proposing that Trump is going to be a Putin puppet because he will be afraid of Russian mobsters harming his family. WTF.

I think its bullshit to claim that Trump won because neo-nazis voted for him. It sets us up for future failure if we think trump won because of fringe groups like that. That may have helped him in the primary but its silly to propose that it was a help in the general. Unless and until we realize that we lost because we actually nominated a candidate that was worse than Trump, we are doomed to keep losing despite demographic tidal waves in our favor. There is no normalizing going on. Trump sucks but he won because Hillary was an even worse candidate. She’s not a worse person or a worse anything else. She was a horribly flawed candidate that lost several states that Obama won because she was such a shitty candidate. How do you lose in a fucking state where the Republican government literally poisoned an entire city to save a few bucks and promote privatization of the water system, did the neo-nazis hand Michigan to Trump? How do you fucking lose in Wisconsin, did the neo-Nazis hand him that too? Did the neo-nazis hand him any of the swing states or did he win those swing states because Hillary was a horrible candidate?

622

You go too far the other way on this. Yes, she was shitty, but that wasn’t enough on its own for her to lose. There were a bunch of things that all had to happen for her to lose this election, and her own poor charisma and lack of focus on MI, WI, and PA were only part of them. She should be blamed, but so should many other people and occurrences, including those Americans who voted for Trump.

You have a personal thing with Hillary, that she’s somehow especially awful. She’s not. She has tons of problems, but none of them are particularly egregious as far as American politicians. You have, to some degree, bought into the Republican line of thinking – you think what the GOP wants you to think about Hillary – and their message is far from entirely truthful.

Not that it matters now. But you should take this as a lesson – it’s very unlikely that any politician, especially one relentlessly criticized by right wing infotainers, is as bad as the worst critics say they are.

623

How is that responsive to my post at all? You want to bash Trump, go right ahead, I’ll join in. But it doesn’t address the issues with Hillary that lost her the election.

We all know that Trump was born on third base. We all know that Trump is a pretty horrible person that is not qualified to be POTUS. Why does it matter that his father was a greedy profiteering racist? Trump is simply not qualified to be POTUS but there he is all the same.

624

Truth hurts. But all you have to do is stop being a whiny little bitch.

No, I’m here to tell liberals to stop letting the Democratic party tell us who we have to vote for because other candidates are unelectable when they tell us to nominate an unelectable candidate.

I’m trying to but its taking longer than I thought. You will brook no dissent on or smear on the madonnna Hillary.

cite please.

No, I’m saying that this was the Democratic party fucking up by nominating Hillary.

Because IMO, he isn’t qualified to be POTUS by experience, temperament or any other metric other than being able to win an election against the shittiest candidate we have nominated in my lifetime.

625

Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi:
“In what way is Trump corrupt? People keep saying that… did he cheat during the election or something?”

“What public history convinces you that he is a corrupt cheater?”

You seem to be so devoted to the idea of Hillary as the sole cause of 2016 that you can’t look straight ahead with your eyes open.

You wonder why people think you’re in the tank, regardless of what you say about yourself? You require a grand jury for don the con, but will not shut up about hillary who already lost. Give it up.

You have made the same point over and over and over. No, I do not agree that she is the sole cause of the result. It’s a wide world out there, and a lot happening. You are not curious about it and not prepared.

626

Trump did get the neo-Nazi vote. But that’s still a rather small fringe.

He probably did better by attracting the misogynist vote. There are lots more of them…

627

Yes the board has gone crazy and with good reason. Trump is POTUS-elect. If ever there was a time to go crazy, this is it. If ever there was a time to excuse a little irrationality, this is it. I’ve been spending a lot of time talking down friends who seem so intent on falling on their sword they are almost looking for an excuse to do so.

Liberals. Don’t die on every fucking hill. Don’t fall on your sword at the first fucking opportunity. This Trump fellow is going to give us plenty to be outraged about over the next 4 years. lets save the outrage for then. Don’t exhaust the dictionary of epithets so early in the game. Save some for later.

Democrats. Stop telling us that we have to support your corrupt shitty candidate because you know what’s good for us and then deliver this fucking loss to Trump. Don’t tell us that we shouldn’t be concerned about the corruption that was revealed by the email hacks because those hacks were performed by a foreign power. Unless they photoshopped those emails, they are damning.

628

So everyone kept telling us. Then why the fuck did she cheat? Doesn’t that make it even worse if she didn’t cheat to win but just because she could?

If the Democratic machine wasn’t so deep in the bag for Hillary that they were not willing to make an objective assessment of their relative chances in a general election, perhaps more people would have voted for berni8e but we were subjected to months of “we can’t nominate Bernie, he will lose the general against Trump” Well guess what, he couldn’t have done any worse than Hillary in fact I think he would have beaten Trump in all those swing states that Hillary lost to Trump.

629

Yes, it seems to be going around.

630

Outside of the voters in MI, WI, PA, and a few other swing states none of them mattered. Who gives a shit that a bunch of racist motherfuckers got all excited in Texas and Alabama. Those states were never going to swing anyway. You don’t blame Republicans for voting Republican. about 40% of Americans will vote for anything with an R next to its name and 40% of Americans will vote for anything with a D next to its name. That shit is built in, you don’t blame them for voting for their own party no matter how much you dislike their candidate, especially if you put up a shitty on yourself.

Hillary died a death of a thousand cuts and most of them were self inflicted.

Bullshit. This notion that you can’t be more than mildly critical of Hillary without playing into the Republican propaganda is utter bullshit. She was a horrible candidate. Even a nobody like Bernie could have beaten Trump but no, we had to nominate Hillary because it was her turn.

True. But she’s bad enough to warrant criticism and she is to blame for Trump winning the election. How the FUCK do you lose to Trump?!?!?

631

Bullshit. Hillary did worse than Obama along every demographic except LGBT and Republicans. That’s right more Republicans voted for Hillary in 2016 than Obama in 2012. If you want to excuse Hillary’s loss on the notion that she lost because she is a woman (which is insurmountable when being a black man is not) then go right ahead but you are not doing the world any favors by hiding from the truth.

632

You say “most”, I say “many”. Either way, it wasn’t her flaws alone that sunk her.

And you’re wrong if you don’t think there were racist voters in MI, WI, and PA – the relatively small state of Louisiana had over 50,000 people vote for David Duke in this election. I think it’s reasonable to call such voters white supremacists and racists – and even if you think midwestern states have fewer white supremacists per capita than Louisiana (which I’m not sure about, considering their relative white populations), that would still extrapolate to larger numbers than Trump’s margin in those three states.

We don’t know if Bernie would have won. “Horrible” is hyperbole, which is my main point here – your criticism sometimes rises to hyperbolic and ridiculous levels. She was a shitty candidate. Kerry-level shitty, or Gore-level shitty. And she still won by a lot in the popular vote and lost the electoral vote razor thin.

She should have done a lot better, but you’re just going too far here. She won the Democratic primary because, by and large, most Democratic voters liked her. That’s not a nothing accomplishment, and it’s not a fake accomplishment. It wasn’t enough this time, but in similar scenarios that’s a formidable accomplishment that would give a very good shot at victory in the general election.

She lost 'cause a ton of different things happened, some of which were beyond her control. Some weren’t. Some of those things we’ve already discussed – a really big chunk of America just isn’t concerned by the bigotry and misogyny that Trump presented, or were less concerned than they were about the exaggerated flaws of Hillary Clinton. That reflects poorly on those Americans, even if it doesn’t mean that they’re terrible monstrous people. I mention another one of those factors above – there actually are, in all likelihood, tens of thousands (or more) of white supremacist voters in every big swing state.

So sure, criticize her. But you should criticize the white supremacists who voted for Trump, and those who bought into the exaggerated and hyperbolic criticism of her (which you might have contributed to) that go beyond reality (like the recurring photoshopped pictures I see on Facebook of her shaking Osama Bin Laden’s hand) such that they put aside their concerns about Trump’s bigotry, and the infotainers who spread this nonsense, just as much as you criticize her.

633

Don’t worry 'bout that, we got plenty of epitaphs left for when shit really starts hitting the fan.

But, please don’t tell them to shut up and wait until it is too late to voice their opinions. Trump has let his agenda be known throughout his campaign, and voicing your opinion against that agenda is perfectly acceptable.

Okay, you don’t have to support our shitty candidate anymore. You’d have to find her first, anyway, I think she joined a convent.

But the deal needs to be that you need to let it go too. I never thought she was a perfect candidate, but I do feel she was a pretty good one. Campaigning for office is different than actually performing the office. It was evident that her campaigning skills were not as good as could be desired, but that has o relation to how she would have governed. Trumps campaigning skills were pretty good, still no relation to how he will govern.

How did she cheat? That someone sent her a question taht might be asked, that wasn’t asked in a debate?

Did she solicit this? No. Is there any reason to believe that she was even aware of the question? No. If she were aware of the question, would it have given her any advantage? No. If she were aware of the question, and that question was also the question that was asked in the debate? Maybe, by a slight margin, but it is still not cheating if she did not solicit the question.

Any animosity on that front should go entirely towards the CNN staffers that decided to leak it. If you want to condemn them, and add their actions (and their getting caught and the perception that created) to your list of reasons clinton lost, go ahead. But I do not see how you can really blame Clinton for what someone completely not under her control did.

Those are opinions. I don’t think Bernie would have done well in the general, and I voted for him in the primary.

Now, at the primary time, here in Ohio, it appeared trump would be the R candidate, and I figured either one of them would have little trouble kicking his ass. I felt hillary would be a better president, but I liked some of bernie’s policy positions better. In voting for him, I got clinton to adopt some of those policies, which, of course, the bernie or busters refused to believe that she would adopt those policies, and refused to vote for her. Now, if bernie had ended up winning the primary, I would have voted for him.

And that is pretty much the only way that Bernie would have done better than Hillary. Everyone that voted for Hillary in the primary would have voted for bernie in the general. There were quite a number of people who voted for bernie in the primary, that then refused to vote for hillary in the general. That (along with a myriad other factors, some of which are her fault, some of which are the party’s, some of which are Comey’s, some of which are Russia’s, some of which are just bad luck, and also, you didn’t make your bed that day) is the reason she lost.

634

Feel free. What fools don’t realize is the minimum wage is already effectively zero for those whose economic value are significantly low enough. Many are non hireable with a wage floor.

635

No shit there are racists everywhere, but that shit is baked in. You really think the racist voters came out to vote against Hillary or for Trump but couldn’t be bothered to vote against Barack Hussein Obama? Michigan didn’t swing because a bunch of racists stayed home in 2012 but came out in 2016.

Neither Gore nor Kerry were running against Donald fucking Trump. That fact alone puts her in a different league of shitty.

She cheated. I can win the fucking Olympic marathon if I cheat enough.

She was running against Donald fucking Trump. Bernie Sanders the socialist would have beaten Trump. Biden “Drunk uncle” Biden would have beaten Trump. Ed “the idiot” Rendell would have beaten Trump. But no it was Hillary’s turn.

Where were those white supremecists when we were about to put a black man named Barack Hussein Obama in the white house?

Almost everything else you talk about is baked in. The folks that are going to believe photoshopped pictures of Hillary with Osama bin Laden were going to vote for whoever had an R next to their name. The Republicans have been pandering to racists since before I cold vote. That shit is baked in. They were not swing voters.

Why did those swing voters that voted for Obama in 2012, vote for Trump in 2016? Because they’re racists?

636

You mean the agenda that he has been backtracking on almost since he won the election. You know who’s going to be pissed in 2 years? All the idiots that voted for him thinking he gave a shit about them beyond getting their vote. He isn’t going to paralyze foreign trade to being jobs back to the US, he’s going to do more of that Republican “business friendly environment” bullshit and lower taxes on corporations and the rich and reduce regulations and boost military spending and call it a day. Sure he will bully a few small manufacturers like carrier here and there so he can pretend that he is making a difference but it’ll be more of the same old shit we get every Republican administration.

And you’ve got to get past the interview to get any job. This is especially important if you are interviewing for a sales job. A president has to be able to lead and garner political support. DC is neck deep in smart, hard working people who understand policy. Half the high paid fucking lobbyists are harder working and better on policy than Hillary, what she offers (or so we thought) is the ability to implement those policy ideas by winning a fucking election against a bobblehead like Trump. How the FUCK do you lose against a shit stain like him? In fucking MICHIGAN!!! Where Republicans literally poisoned an entire city to save a few bucks and promote privatization of the water system. FUCKITY FUCK, how do you find that acceptable?

So now you are also quibbling with the fact that the question wasn’t asked word for word? She cheated and it happened on multiple occasions and no one asked Donna Brazile to stop. Are you sure that is the extent of her duplicity? Are you so sure that the DNC’s scheming began and ended with those emails? Or can a rational person see this pattern of behavior and ask whether there wasn’t more that wasn’t discovered? How would you feel if it was revealed that Biden would have run but he was reined in by the DNC because it was Hillary’s turn?

Was she lying to the bank of brazil when she said that she wanted open borders and free trade. Or was she lying to us when she said she didn’t?

Maybe not the first time but it happened multiple times. I can understand not wanting to destroy Donna Brazile’s career by turning her in when it happened. But the fact that they kept coming indicates that the cheating was not unwelcome.

Of course I can’t predict what would have happened if things had been different but couldn’t have been much worse.

So would have several Trump voters I know. They both had a populist message. Which one do you think works better? The billionaire populist that grabs women’s pussies or the lifelong socialist who even the Clinton machine couldn’t find dirt on?

What would Russia have been able to uncover that the Clinton machine could not? All those myriad of faults do not translate over to Bernie. They are pretty Hillary specific. What could Comey have done to derail Bernie?

637

And the percentage of those who aren’t worth a minimum wage are small enough that the benefit to those who are worth the minimum wage but don’t have enough bargaining power to get overshadows the ones who aren’t worth the minimum wage and have to live on welfare and food stamps.

By inference I am saying that unskilled physical labor is worth the minimum wage.

638

I think some of them stayed home in 2012. It’s very obvious that Trump inspired something unusual for American white supremacists – many of them had likely removed themselves from politics altogether, seeing the Republican party as race traitors.

He tapped into something. Something stupid, maybe, but something that hadn’t been tapped into before.

This is the most ridiculous of the memes you’ve been repeating. The DNC was tilted towards her, but it was completely incompetent and probably hurt her and helped Bernie just based on its incompetence. She won because more Democrats liked her than Bernie – it’s as simple as that. If the DNC had been totally neutral she would have won by more, since they wouldn’t have been spreading their incompetence along with their obvious-to-all bias.

Says you – I’m not so sure.

A lot of them weren’t voting, since the Republicans were race traitors and supports of the Jews.

Some of them were less concerned about Trump’s bigotry than they were about fictional Hillary’s flaws (or the real flaws). Either way, that reflects poorly on them and they should be blamed and criticized for that. Others were misogynists.

Voting for Obama doesn’t prove someone’s not racist, or opposed to racism. It just proves that they’re willing to vote for a black person if they meet a certain bar.

639

By the time the GOP propaganda machine got done with Bernie, he would have looked like the second coming of Karl Marx.

640

iiandyiii wrote " Biden “Drunk uncle” Biden"? Take out the “drunk uncle” reference and isn’t that city in Germany. Seriously, Biden and trump are both “drunk uncle” types. Biden’s the one that tells dirty jokes, trump’s the one that tries to stick his hand down your pants.