I think I stated pretty early on that she is a bad candidate, not a bad person or an incompetent bureaucrat.
She is a bad candidate and she ran a bad campaign. We thought that we could overcome the former by avoiding the latter. But no, she cheated and got caught. She made a big deal out of the speeches to the plutocrats which made them seem like her true feelings when the text was finally revealed. She spent too much time raising money in very blue states and neglected the swing states where there weren’t as many Democratic party bosses or fundraising opportunities, all they had were the swing votes to win the goddam election. She swallowed up the lion’s share of the joint fundraising proceeds from down-ticket candidates.
I was pretty butt-hurt when Bush Jr. won a second term too. A first term I can understand, but the second one? How the fuck do you explain that to history?
I never voted for the winning POTUS candidate until Obama and I have voted for one since. I voted for HW Bush, Dole, Gore, Kerry, Obama, Obama, Clinton. I never had to swallow as hard as that last time.
In politics there is. Just ask Anthony Weiner or that wide stance guy.
Sea changes? No. Shitty Democratic candidate, yes. You make is sound like no one that voted for Trump had to swallow hard to vote for the pussy grabbing, racist. If they had any other plausible option, they would have taken it.
I am comparing one group (free market neocon Republicans) fucking up so badly that they should STFU for a while to another group (ready for Hillary New Democrats) who fucked up so badly that THEY should STFU for a while.
I would submit that the Republicans don’t really rally behind the free market neocons like they used to. And I suspect we will stop rallying behind the ready for Hillary New Democrats like we used to.
I will oppose Trump when he proposes things that I disagree with (and there have already been several) but I am more focused on good things happening to America than bad things happening to Trump. I am not willing to hold my breath for 4 years so that we can maybe regain the reins of power and remake government in our image, we got dealt a bad hand by Hillary and we have to make the best of it.
But if we ever want to win an election again, we have to learn the lessons from this loss. Trump was not unbeatable, in fact Hillary would probably have beaten him if her unpopularity wasn’t combined with a horribly run campaign.
No, swing voters are centrists who find that one party or the other better represents their interests in any given election cycle. These were far left voters, who voted for bernie, because they wanted far left policies, but didn’t vote for hillary, because she wasn’t far left enough for them.
Hillary is running for president again in 2018? Now, that I am against.
So in other words you have no answer to any point but just need to explain that point by point?
You act like someone who just was disappointed for the first time ever. I didn’t say you actually were. We don’t need a history. It’s clear you are not a progressive.
You act like clinton’s badness is the only thing worth talking about for 2016. So she is the end all be all for your inquiry. You disputing that?
You are telling ordinary voting people to STFU on a web forum because they had a bad primary and election, and placing them on a scale with a party of politicians who failed to protect, squandered american blood and treasure, and raped the country from their position of power and privilege.
…Hillary was a strong candidate. Trump was a stronger one.
Arguments from incredulity aren’t very convincing.
Why can you do subtly and nuance in regards to the Republican Primary vote, but you turn into a flaming moron when it comes to discussing Hillary?
Hillary beat Bernie. Did he give her a run for her money? In a two-horse race, he most surely did. And he still lost. He lost without all the disadvantages that you claim Trump had over his opponents over in the other primary.
Oh boo fucking hoo. So Hillary didn’t play fair. We got it. Do you think Trump and his campaign were planning on making it easy for Bernie? Were they planning on playing fair? If Bernie couldn’t handle the Democrats he probably couldn’t handle Trump.
In other word: she beat Bernie. Gotcha.
I hold the people who voted for Trump responsible for getting Trump elected. Hillary didn’t deliver the Trump Presidency to you. The people of the United States did that. Blame them.
You take a step back: throw your emotions aside and figure out how he did it.
The reality is that at this stage it doesn’t matter if he was “invincible” or not. Claiming “Hillary was a shit candidate who delivered the Trump Presidency” isn’t going to stop Trump getting voted in again in four years. Because what you say simply isn’t true and if this is the lesson that Democrats take away from the election then Trump is going to win again in four years time.
I have exactly the same basis for my opinion as you have for forming your opinion.
And yet you still haven’t cited any fucking poll. I’ve cited one fucking poll more than you. So now that your claim has changed to “every fucking poll right up until the Democratic national Convention had Bernie beating Trump by larger margins than Hillary” I now want you to cite “every fucking poll” that shows this please: or withdraw your claim.
And “Bernie beating Trump by larger margins than Hillary” is utterly fucking meaningless. Bernie could have beaten Trump by a gigantic margin in the popular vote and Trump would still be President. Hillary did beat Donald by a gigantic margin in the popular vote and Trump is still President.
So fucking what?
All the polls said that Hillary beats Trump. And Hillary did beat Trump: in the popular vote. But she didn’t win the election. So would Bernie have won the election? We don’t fucking know. My guess is that he wouldn’t have. Your guess is that he would have. Your guess is as good as mine. Lets stop guessing and lets worry about making sure Trump doesn’t get re-elected in four years time.
Hillary polled better than Trump. By a fucking large margin. Is that not significant?
Clinton polled better than Trump. Trump won the election. What do you think that means?
A strategic error. A big fucking strategic error. I think everyone agrees on that. She made quite a few: the biggest one was underestimating her enemy, and not realizing what he was doing that eventually put him “over the top” and led to his victory. But Bernie probably would have underestimated Trump as well. And anyone else running against Trump would have made the same mistake.
That you haven’t fucking cited.
Excuse after fucking excuse.
What you need to do is take the detached view you have applied to your analysis of the Republican Primaries and apply that to what happened in the General Elections.
You really are out of touch.
“I think he said he will not be politically correct,” Sanders explained. “I think he said some outrageous and painful things, but I think people are tired of the same old politically correct rhetoric, and they believe that he was speaking from his heart and willing to take on everybody.”
Sanders then, and also bizarrely, defined political correctness as a phrase describing political double-speak. “It means you have a set of talking points which have been poll-tested and focus-group-tested and that’s what you say rather than what’s really going on. And often, what you are not allowed to say are things which offend very powerful people.”
Bernie isn’t the sort of person that I would want to represent me. I fight for causes that some would call “politically correct.” I’ve been called an SJW. Bernie is not the person who would stand up for me. A few weeks after the election here is is, throwing me under the bus.
The “Bernie Bro’s” made life a misery for many people of colour and women online. Many said that they were worse than the Trump Trolls. Lets stop pretending that a Bernie running for President would have been a “bed of roses” and that he was going to roll over Trump. Bernie would have bought his own baggage: he came with a shit load of baggage. Bernie was never really tested. Lets stop pretending he had been.
Thanks for proving that it was you that introduced the Russian mob/mafia to the discussion.
You distorted the fucking argument. Not anyone else.
What side am I supposed to be on? This isn’t about fucking sides. There are two side here at the moment: me and you and thats it. Don’t you fucking attribute to me the words and actions of people in your fevered imagination. I don’t even live in your country for gods sakes. Grow up.
Strawman.
Who in this thread is relying on a conspiracy theory? Name them: call the out or shut up about it. Stop arguing against fucking strawmen.
Wait, you’re saying that a bunch of ultra liberals that voted for Bernie ended up voting for Trump?
Here is what you wrote:
“The fact that people that voted for bernie in the primary chose to support trump rather than vote for hillary is a large part of why she lost.”
I voted for Hillary because I didn’t think it was worth "teaching the Democrats a lesson " if the tuition was a Trump presidency. I don’t know ANY liberals that voted for Bernie that turned around and started to support Trump.
I know swing voters that voted for Bernie that turned around and voted for Trump.
You know off year elections are important too. If 2010 didn’t teach us that then there is no hope for us.
You’re kinda quibbling now aren’t you? I act like X but you’re not saying I AM X. :dubious:
Why would you say that? And what is your definition of progressive? Is Hillary a progressive?
So you want to make an inquiry into what, exactly?. Nominating Hillary is the thing we had control over, we shouldn’t have nominated her. She is the sort of candidate that we must not nominate the next time around. No more “Ready for Hillary” type candidates.
I am telling a bunch of Ready for Hillary types to metaphorically STFU (I am not actually proposing that you stop expressing your views) on a web forum because their candidate is responsible for putting Donald Bobblehead Trump in the white house for 4 years. Your candidate was horrible and is largely responsible for her loss to Donald bobblehead Trump and she is partly to blame for every shitty thing that Donald Bobblehead Trump does over the next 4 years. She made him possible.
Anything you’d like to have explained to you? Like how the Russian mob can’t actually control POTUS.
Some did turn around and vote for trump, yes. But that wasn’t what cost the election. Quite a number of them either stayed home, or voted third party. That was what cost the election. And yes, I do consider staying home or voting third party to be supporting trump. You can disagree and quibble whether that’s support (I feel it is, in a “good men do nothing” sort of way), but you cannot deny that it is enabling.
Now, I obviously do not have the results of who voted for whom, as we do a secret ballot in this country, but are you telling me that you don’t think that any of bernie’s people didn’t vote for trump?
How do you define a swing voter? I defined it previously, as a centrist who finds that one party or the other better represents their interests in any given election cycle. A centrist would not have voted for bernie, he’s a bit too socialist. A centrist would not have voted for trump, either.
If your definition of a swing voter is someone who votes for a candidate in one party for the primary, and votes for the other party in the general, then sure. But I don’t think that you will get many takers on that definition. That’s just an unreliable voter.
So, I am thinking that it was not centrists that you knew that you called swing voters, but instead, you simply knew people that were for bernie’s platform, and when bernie didn’t win, and hillary only took over most of his platform, they voted for tump instead.
You know odd year elections are the most important, right? While the pres may make big decisions, my local city council makes decisions that are much more important to me.
It does bother me quit a bit, the number of people who think that the only person to vote for is the pres. They go for that, and fill in the other spots on the ballot as an afterthought, I go to vote on local stuff, and fill in the national stuff as an afterthought.
In what way was she a strong candidate? She had the highest negatives of any recent presidential candidate with perhaps the exception of Trump. She has never won a competitive election in her life. The only time she won a
Arguments from incredulity aren’t very convincing.
[/quote]
So you don’t think its an extraordinary claim to say that Trump was a very strong candidate? I guess this is the new normal. Trump is no longer some fucking clown that threaded a needle through an overcrowded Republican primary field to face a weak candidate. He was just a really, really good candidate.
Because a little bit of nuance is called for when you have a very crowded Republican primary field. Less nuance is required when we coronated Hillary in the Democratic primary and she lost a one on one match against a bobblehead.
A) Bernie is a virtual nobody;
B) The Ready For Hillary Crowd thinned out the primary so almost no one else ran;
C) Hillary CHEATED during the primary. It probably didn’t make a difference but would it have made a difference if news of the cheating came out during the primary? maybe.
Wow!
So tell me… when and how did Trump cheat? Did he get debate questions ahead of time? Did the committees in charge of the election conspire to help Trump and hurt his opponents?
Yes and the trouble she encountered trying to beat this nobody…with a face made for radio… and a voice made for print… with the charisma of a ready for retirement high school history teacher… should have told you what a horrible candidate she was.
One person in particular was more responsible for it than anyone else. Hillary. And I blame her.
He did it by running against Hillary. The Republicans aren’t stupid enough to nominate Hillary in 2020 so we will have to come up with a different strategy.
Nominating another Hillary type is going to turn Trump into a 2 term POTUS. Everyone can keep trying to sweep this under the rug but coronating a plutocratic, corrupt, cheating, uncharismatic, unpopular, secretive candidate is going to hurt our chances in 2020. And until people realize that this was the primary problem this time around we will minimize its effect.
I think Bernie could have won where Hillary lost. He had the populist streak that won Trump a bunch of rust belt votes.
I am pretty sure that Biden could have won. He has that folksy charm and he has an affable kind of stupid that compared well with the nasty bullyish stupid that Trump has. He’s also won a crapload of elections on his own without being married to Bill Clinton.
I bet even Shithead Ed Rendell could have beaten Trump. He would probably have carried Pennsylvania and Ohio but he would never cross the Clintons.
What polls are you basing your opinion on?
I made an error. There is one very early poll conducted 10/29-11/4 2015 where Hillary beats Trump by wider margins than Bernie.
The most recent poll where they polled Sanders and Clinton against Trump was an IBD poll held from 5/31-6/5
Hillary beats trump 39-35 (the Hillary poll includes Johnson but I doubt that the Libertarian took more from Hillary than Trump)
Sanders beats trump 49-39
George Washington University Poll held on 4/17-4/20
Hillary beats Trump 46-43
Bernie beats Trump 51-40
McClatchy Marist Poll conducted 3/29-3/31
Hillary beats Trump 50-41
Bernie beats Trump 57-37
Bloomberg Poll conducted 3/19-3/22
Hillary beats Hillary beats Trump 54-36
Bernie beats Trump 58-34
Fox News poll conducted 2/15-2/17
Hillary beats Trump 39-37
Bernie beats Trump 46-35
In CNN/ORC Polls held on 4/28-5/1; 3/17-3-20; 2/24-2/27; 1/21-1/24
Sanders beat Ted Cruz and John Kasich by larger margins than Hillary.
They didn’t poll Hillary against Trump in those series of polls but Sanders beat Trump handily in all the polls in this series. There are several series that do not poll both Sanders and Hillary against Trump but does pol them both against other candidates and Sanders wins by bigger margins (or loses by smaller ones) in almost all of them.
And its not like Bernie was polling better than every other Democrat. Biden was beating Republicans by wider margins than Bernie. Hillary doesn’t win until you restrict polling to Democrats. Hillary does better than Biden or Bernie. This is largely the effect of the ready for Hillary crowd in their self assured certainty that if they can overlook Hillary’s flaws, so can the rest of America and they were in a position to shove her down the Democratic party’s throats… by hook or by crook.
No, you’re wrong. Unless you are willing to throw polling science out the window in the name of preserving the sanctity of the Madonna Hillary, you are wrong. Hillary lost by razor thin margins in states where Bernie beat Hillary, like Michigan and Wisconsin. To say that polling is “utterly fucking meaningless” when she lost by a handful of votes in states where Bernie’s populist appeal would have gone a long way is being deliberately ignorant of bernies strengths vis-à-vis Hillary.
So statistics and polling science are no longer valid?
No, mine is an educated informed guess. Yours is a statement that we can’t actually know what would have happened. once again, Hillary lost by less than 100,000 votes in a few key states. States that Bernie was very popular in.
No, no she didn’t, not really, she trailed behind Trump in several polls during the election cycle both before and after she her nomination. Do you need another cite?
You should take another look at those polls. She was beating Trump by the margin of error + or - 2%. But it sounds like you are willing to totally disregard polls going forward. That polling science isn’t valid anymore.
Fuck underestimating. She’s just arrogant.
Bernie doesn’t have Hillary’s arrogance… or her insecurities. But I’m glad you are willing to concede that not focusing on the electoral map in an election that is based on the fucking electoral map was a mistake (I would say one among many). Now string together those mistakes with a weak plutocratic candidate who is riding on her reputation for hard work and competence and you have the Kasich campaign but without the charm.
I trust I have satisfied this requirement.
Some people would call it astute observation and analysis. But if you want to call it an excuse, that’s fine, I’m not going to defend the performance of any of the Republican candidates except perhaps Fiorina and Perry.
I think I have. I might have distilled it to Hillary is a shitty candidate but I have provided details as to why she is a shitty candidate several times. She has never won a competitive election in her life. She is a plutocrat running during a populist election. She is an establishment insider running during an anti-establishment election. She has negative ratings are only rivaled by Trump. She is a cheater (although we didn’t know that at the time, but I wonder if she would have still won the primary if we knew this during the primaries).
She ran a horrible campaign (I think you are conceding this point). Being able to run good campaigns is an important part of being a good candidate. She was bad at this. I mean for fucks sake, how does Bernie (“never heard of him”) Sanders give Hillary Clinton a run for her money? So much so that she has to run to his left on the only issue where he hasn’t pinned the goddam needle to the left. Guns. And gun control always loses votes in the general election. Then instead of tacking back to the center on guns, she has to double down on gun control (which loses you votes in places like Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin) because she was busy playing to well heeled audiences in San Francisco and Manhattan where they don’t like guns.
I thought you said you aren’t from the USA, I don’t understand why it matters if you would vote for him. I thin it is a given that the ready for Hillary crowd wants Hillary to represent them.
Bernie is as liberal or more liberal than Hillary on almost every front except guns.
So, wait. You think Hillary is more of a SJW type than Bernie?
How did he throw you under the bus? He sorta has a reputation as a SJW its one of his less appealing traits.
Just to be clear, I’m not saying that Bernie is the best candidate we could have put forward. I think there are half a dozen candidates better than him. But Hillary was one of the worst.
I’m not sure what this random compilation of blogs criticizing Bernie’s cool relationship with minorities is supposed to prove.
He couldn’t have done worse than Hillary and he was polling better than her. She lost by a razor thin margin.
Wait, you just said that Dasmooher introduced the Russian mafia as a parody. I pointed out where Drad Dog didn’t realize it was a parody and I gave him shit for it.
WTF are you talking about? How did I distort the argument? Drad Dog literally said that it was stupid to believe that Trump would be immune to threats of violence against himself or his family (re:the Russian mafia being able to control Trump).
You have an awful lot of anger about criticism of Hillary for someone who doesn’t live in my country. You are on the side of the Hillary apologists or you are doing a bang up impression of a Hillary apologist.
No strawman. Its what Drad Dog said. There are some broken quotes in there but after Dasmoocher brought up the Russian mob in jest, Drag Dog took it seriously. You might want to take a closer look because you are going to feel a little stupid for your arrogance. Are SJW’s usually so arrogant? Oh yeah, they are.
Drad Dog was. In fact I think several posters have advanced the notion of Trump as a Manchurian candidate. Have you been paying attention?
No its not enabling to not vote for someone you don’t actually support. Its not enabling to vote for Jill Stein. Hillary has to earn those votes and its this sense of entitlement you those votes that makes her such a bad candidate.
By your rationale over 70% of Americans supported Trump. Voter participation was the lowest it had been in 20 years, 45% of eligible voters stayed home. The turnout was maybe 10% higher in swing states.
There may be a few here or there but generally speaking, no.
One informed opinion agrees.
I agree that there might be a Bernie populist here and there that might have gone to Trump over Hillary and I definitely think that some Bernie supporters stayed home.
To me, a swing voter is someone who does not vote along partisan lines. I used to be a swing voter. I am no longer a swing voter, I vote Democrat almost reflexively because the Republican party is dead to me. I might become a swing voter again if we can break out of the two party system but I can’t get in bed with the Republican coalition anymore.
I mean someone who doesn’t give a shit about parties. They voted for Bernie because his populism resonated with them but when he lost the primary, Trump was the only populist left standing. They may have swallowed hard but Clinton was such a plutocratic, corrupt insider that they would either stay home or vote for the pussy grabbing populist.
I don’t think swing voters aren’t centrists. I think centrists are mostly Democrats. I don’t think the Bernie voters trusted Hillary’s sincerity on populist issues after her secret speeches were leaked, after they found out about how she cheated during the primary, after she spent all her time courting wealthy plutocratic political donors.
All elections matter
The local stuff is pretty party line for me now. During the primary, I generally just vote for the challenger unless I have a favorable impression of the incumbent (I used to be a TTBO independent).
She didn’t “win” anything. Because there was no contest for anything other than electoral votes. And she lost that. True, she wound up with more votes, but that was not what they were competing for. You might as well say Hillary “won” spending more dollars or wearing a brooch more often.
Thanks for the shout out and my importance to this discussion has been noted. If you want to cite the posts and the exchange I’ll take a look. I can’t find it now. Otherwise leave me out of it. You are losing by stuffing every exchange with straw signifying zero. You have to admit you are using this as a distraction, taking you away from some point you are needing to make.
Better yet just say what your point of dispute is with fellow posters on the OP? Then STFU?
Did you miss the cites upthread? I mention the Russian thing as an example of how ridiculous the Hillary apologists are getting. To be fair, it is probably one of the most extreme examples but the Manchurian candidate thing was parroted by several posters other than yourself.
Do you seriously not remember saying that it is ridiculous to believe that Trump would be immune to threats of physical violence by the Russian mafia?
The whole Russian mob thing starts in this post where Dasmoocher creates a conspiracy theory out of whole cloth to show us how easy they are to cobble together. I’m not really sure how it advanced his argument (it seemed to be advancing mine).
Drad Dog misses the TWO markers that explain that Dasmoocher is not seriously proposing that Trump will be threatened by the Russian mob. Drad then goes on to say:
“The idea that trump is not vulnerable to threats of violence (or financial threats for that matter) is part of the same strong man meme we’ve seen, that’s not going to end well. It’s really nervy to come on like someone who voted against him and then spout this childish nonsense.”
But go ahead and read the several comments that follow. Its entertaining. Dasmoocher is so eager to find some reason to criticize me, he laughs at me for taking his post seriously, when I am criticizing someone someone else for taking his post seriously. And of course there is the repeated refrain that I must be a Trump supporter if I am critical of Hillary.
Apparently the Ready For Hillary crowd thinks that any criticism of Hillary makes you a Trump supporter.
Just cite the exchange dude, and don’t parse to change the meaning.
Then leave me out of it when talking to other people about your disputes with them.
donald has many close ties with russia which he is not disclosing. To clarify this he needs to come clean. And he is seemingly refusing. Until he does it’s all speculation. Which is what we tend to do here. remember? This secrecy is not hillary clintons fault. It is a dangerous violation of public service norms from the dude who won the election. I don’t have a position on where the ghost in this machine will show itself. That is my position. The rest is straw, man.
I think you are using this as a fulcrum to muddy the waters. But generally no one is immune from violence in the world I live in.
Try talking to one person at a time. If you don’t things get too general, and meaningless.
I was just giving an example of how retarded the apologetics were getting. I will stop referring to your belief that the Russian mob will be able to force Trump into doing things he doesn’t want to do because he owes some Russians money.
We do more than speculate. Conspiracy theorists speculate.
No I am using this as an example of the lengths people are willing to go to ignore how horrible Hillary was as a candidate.
Most of the world does not have secret service protection. Oh and the might of the most powerful military the world has ever known.
Sure, presidents have been assassinated before but I don’t think presidents are generally going to be scared of organized criminals.
I can walk and chew gum at the same time. I bet you can too.
Millions of those who voted. You do not know which candidate most Americans prefer. This clinging to the popular vote—which was not what the candidates were competing for is comical, yet sad in its desperation to…to…to hold on to something.
