Is it time women took some responsibility for sex?

[gracer]

@Jragon

It was rather… ironic to start addressing how people re-frame and hijack issues that affect men in a thread about a primarily female problem, apologies.

This is very courteous of you. Consider my hat deeply doffed.*

*I actually doffed my coffee cup, as I am not wearing a hat (nor am I wearing a coffee cup, but it was here, and somewhat hat-shaped). But I really did, and my SO said “why are you waving your cup?”. I hope it suffices, in lieu of hat.

[billfish678]

@blindboyard

“Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat.” – Hillary Clinton

Holy crap. I’ll just assume Hillary was taken a bit out of context or didn’t bother to think how bad that sounds once you think about it for 5 seconds first. Though I suppose dead people don’t feel particulary victimized once dead.

[Jragon]

@gracer

This is very courteous of you. Consider my hat deeply doffed.*

*I actually doffed my coffee cup, as I am not wearing a hat (nor am I wearing a coffee cup, but it was here, and somewhat hat-shaped). But I really did, and my SO said “why are you waving your cup?”. I hope it suffices, in lieu of hat.

bow

@billfish678

Holy crap. I’ll just assume Hillary was taken a bit out of context or didn’t bother to think how bad that sounds once you think about it for 5 seconds first. Though I suppose dead people don’t feel particulary victimized once dead.

FWIW, here’s the whole speech:

http://clinton3.nara.gov/WH/EOP/First_Lady/html/generalspeeches/1998/19981117.html

It’s from the First Lady’s Conference on Domestic Violence in El Savador. She mentions it for all of 5 seconds. The general idea (from all 2-3 sentences about it) seems to be that men die, so they don’t suffer, where women have to live with the memories of their lost loved ones. Though given the context of the speech, methinks there may have been a little bit of crowd pandering in there. Not to mention just beforehand she mentions how former enemies (male soldiers) were embracing and helping to rebuild ghost towns into flourishing communities, so there’s not exactly a seething bottle of misandry there.

[billfish678]

@you_with_the_face

The closest male equivalent is being told to behave in a certain way to avoid a false rape accusation.

I’m sure it happens, but its uncommon to hear men advised to avoid having sex with strangers or emotionally unstable women to protect themselves from this crime.

“Don’t stick your dick in the crazy” and “Don’t dip your pen in the company ink well” probably came into being shortly after Og stepped out of the cave. And in the past few decades I am pretty sure most men get a fair bit of advice that are variations on the “this might or might not be or might or might not look like rape so doing it is not an optimum behavior”.

As common? Probably not. Not common? I don’t know where you’ve been lately.

[you_with_the_face]

@billfish678

“Don’t stick your dick in the crazy” and “Don’t dip your pen in the company ink well” probably came into being shortly after Og stepped out of the cave.

In the context of keeping yourself from spiralling into a pit of drama? Yes, people say stuff like this.

In the context of avoiding false rape accusations and other crimes? Nope.

And in the past few decades I am pretty sure most men get a fair bit of advice that are variations on the “this might or might not be or might or might not look like rape so doing it is not an optimum behavior”.

I’m talking about false rape accusations. Not situations in which the lines were a little blurry between consent and non-consent.

[Modern_Master]

Women can be raped.

Men can be raped.

False accusations of rape are very real.

False accusations of rape can destroy a man’s reputation as well as a woman’s reputation.

Women need to make consent very clear.

[billfish678]

@you_with_the_face

In the context of avoiding false rape accusations and other crimes? Nope.

You don’t think a decent fraction of men worry about false rape accusations and happen to talk about it on occasion?

Again, as much as woman worry about being raped and all that goes with that? Nope.

Not common at all? To the point of being uncommon? I beg to differ. And I wasn’t even raised in the more recent “no means no and drunks are off limits” era.

[Modern_Master]

@billfish678

You don’t think a decent fraction of men worry about false rape accusations and happen to talk about it on occasion?

Again, as much as woman worry about being raped and all that goes with that? Nope.

Not common at all? To the point of being uncommon? I beg to differ. And I wasn’t even raised in the more recent “no means no and drunks are off limits” era.

I’d say almost all men worry about false rape accusations.

[Modern_Master]

@you_with_the_face

In the context of avoiding false rape accusations and other crimes? Nope.

I’m also not sure where you’ve been lately.

[Modern_Master]

@Dogzilla

So let me see if I’ve got the overall theme of this thread correct.

Posit: Women need to take more responsibility for sex. While this was not clearly defined in the OP, apparently, “taking responsibility,” means consenting, clearly and loudly.

Rape victimizes men too, somehow.

If women dress more modestly and do not leave their homes after sunset, they are therefore taking more responsibility for sex.

Or something.

Actually, I have no idea what the OP was trying to assert, nor what this thread is about. Except women are evil, dangerous sluts and blame men for everything.

You honestly didn’t know that men can be victims of rape? Really?

The OP is trying to assert that women need to take more responsibility for sex. It’s in the thread title.

Also, he didn’t say that at all. You’re projecting.

[suranyi]

@Modern_Master

I’d say almost all men worry about false rape accusations.

I don’t know about that. I realize that they exist, but I don’t worry about them. There is zero chance that I personally would be accused, and very very little chance that anyone I know would be either.

[Modern_Master]

@suranyi

I don’t know about that. I realize that they exist, but I don’t worry about them. There is zero chance that I personally would be accused, and very very little chance that anyone I know would be either.

You should. Here’s why:

Cite

From the article:

Of the 90,427 forcible rapes reported in 2007, 40% were cleared by arrest or “exceptional means” (FBI, 2008d) with 23,307 of those being arrests (FBI, 2008b). Clearance of a report by exceptional means occurs when the known suspect dies before an arrest is made, when the victim refuses to provide the information or assistance necessary to follow an investigation through to an arrest, or when the known suspect is being held in another jurisdiction for a different crime and extradition is denied. In order to clear a case by exceptional means, the officers must have an identified suspect, know where he can be found, and have enough evidence for a legal arrest.

Degrees of “Not True”
A certain percentage of rape complaints are classified as “unfounded” by the police and excluded from the FBI’s statistics. For example, in 1995, 8% of all forcible rape cases were closed as unfounded, as were 15% in 1996 (Greenfeld, 1997). According to the FBI, a report should only be considered unfounded when investigation revealed that the elements of the crime were not met or the report was “false” (which is not defined) (FBI, 2007).

Bolding mine

Crying Rape
Although there is no doubt that false rape allegations occur, it is extremely difficult to determine what percentage of rape reports is intentionally false. This is due to many factors, including jurisdictional variation in definition, criteria, and reporting practices, as well as the fact that not all rapes are reported. Although the FBI had set 8% as the average rate of false (actually, unfounded) accusations during the late 1990s, there is remarkable variation in the estimates of false allegations of rape found in the literature (Kanin, 1994; Epstein, 2005). A review of those studies on false rape accusations conducted between 1968 and 2005 **showed a percentage range from 1-90% **(Rumney, 2006).

Very little formal research has been conducted on the prevalence of false allegations of rape. One study looked at the 109 cases of forcible rape that were disposed of in one small midwestern town between 1978 and 1987 (Kanin, 1994). The given town was specifically selected for study because the police department used a uniquely objective and thorough protocol when investigating rape complaints. Among other procedural safeguards, officers did not have the discretion to drop rape investigations if they concluded the complaint was “suspect” or unfounded. Every rape accusation had to be thoroughly investigated and included offering a polygraph to both the accuser and the accused. Cases were only determined to be false if and when the accuser admitted that no rape occurred.

The researchers further investigated those cases that the police, through their investigation, had ultimately determined were “false” or fabricated. During the follow-up investigation, the complainants held fast to their assertion that their rape allegation had been true, despite being told they would face penalties for filing a false report. As a result, 41% of all of the forcible rape complaints were found to be false. To further this study, a similar analysis was conducted on all of the forcible rape complaints filed at two large midwestern public universities over a 3-year period. Here, where polygraphs were not offered as part of the investigatory procedure,** it was found that 50% of the complaints were false.**

Charles P. McDowell, a researcher in the United States Air Force Special Studies Division, studied the 1,218 reports of rape that were made between 1980 and 1984 on Air Force bases throughout the world (McDowell, 1985). Of those, 460 were found to be “proven” allegations either because the “overwhelming preponderance of the evidence” strongly supported the allegation or because there was a conviction in the case. Another 212 of the total reports were found to be “disproved” as the alleged victim convincingly admitted the complaint was a “hoax” at some point during the initial investigation. The researchers then investigated the 546 remaining or “unresolved” rape allegations including having the accusers submit to a polygraph. **Twenty-seven percent (27%) of these complainants admitted they had fabricated their accusation just before taking the polygraph **or right after they failed the test. (It should be noted that whenever there was any doubt, the unresolved case was re-classified as a “proven” rape.) Combining this 27% with the initial 212 “disproved” cases, it was determined that approximately 45% of the total rape allegations were false.

Bolding mine

[Ibn_Warraq]

@Modern_Master

I’d say almost all men worry about false rape accusations.

Really?

I’ve never met any IRL. It’s only online that I’ve met men terrified of getting falsely accused of rape.

[billfish678]

You do realize there is a slight difference between “terrified” about something and mulling over a possibility that something might in some small chance be of some concern?

I’m not particulary worried about it, but I do know a false accusation would royally suck donkey balls.

[Bridget_Burke]

@Der_Trihs

No; it’s heavily favored using men for guinea pigs since human experimentation is dangerous and people didn’t care as much if a male test subject died. Twice as much money is spent on female-targeted medical research in general as on male-targeted research; but males were used as experimental subjects whenever that was an option because people didn’t care nearly as much if they got sick or died. They only started to change that when it became clear that men and women are different enough that it wasn’t working well, and have predictably had more problems with people getting angry over harm to the new female subjects.

Cite(s), please…

[Zeriel]

@Modern_Master

I’d say almost all men worry about false rape accusations.

This is not my experience, as long as we’re sharing anecdotes. Of the men I know who worry about false rape accusations, two were actually victims of such (including myself), and the rest are either closet misogynists (of the “well, you can’t trust anyone, especially women” variety), overt misogynists (of the “some girls just rape easy” and “all girls just want to get hooks into you or punish you for being a male” varieties), or Dopers who I don’t know well enough to judge.

And even I don’t “worry” about it. I simply modified my sexual practices slightly (basically, I stopped sleeping with ex-girlfriends with emotional problems, even if they booty-called me) and carried on with my life.

[Dogzilla]

@Modern_Master

You honestly didn’t know that men can be victims of rape? Really?

The OP is trying to assert that women need to take more responsibility for sex. It’s in the thread title.

Also, he didn’t say that at all. You’re projecting.

I’m not projecting so much as I’m trying to comment on how far flung this thread has gone since the OP. I haven’t seen any clearly delineated examples of actions women should take in order to be taking more responsibility for sex. If the OP’s assertion is that women should take more responsibilities for rape, well then, let’s take that one on over to the Pit, because my response would not be appropriate here.

You said

@Modern Master

Women can be raped.

Men can be raped.

False accusations of rape are very real.

False accusations of rape can destroy a man’s reputation as well as a woman’s reputation.

Women need to make consent very clear.

So men can be raped and women can be raped, but according to you, only women need to make consent very clear. Men, apparently, do not need to make consent clear, despite the obvious danger of being raped themselves.

So the upshot of this thread is: women need to make consent clear. And if they don’t, and a man chooses to have sex with one anyway, fuck her it can’t be called rape. Is that it?

I’m just trying to figure out what to do, ya see. Already, I take responsibility for birth control. I’ll even provide disease control in the form of purchasing condoms for my partner if he can’t be bothered to take responsibility for that himself. I’m not sure what else the OP wants from women, aside from erecting giant neon signs next to our vaginas that say “VACANCY! PENIS WELCOME!” and possibly also getting an agreement in writing before taking one’s clothing off.

[billfish678]

@Zeriel

And even I don’t “worry” about it. I simply modified my sexual practices slightly (basically, I stopped sleeping with ex-girlfriends with emotional problems, even if they booty-called me) and carried on with my life.

I think you guys are using different definitions of “worry”.

There is the worry about how likely something is to happen. Then there is the worry about how bad it might be IFFFF it happens.

Personally, I am not particularly worried about a false rape accusation. If I was dating regularlly I wouldn’t be waking up every morning hoping I didn’t get accussed of rape that night.

OTOH, I would know that if I got some booty that night and SVU was knocking on my door the next morning my life might very likely go to shit (at the very least short term if not nearly permanently).

See the difference?

[Ibn_Warraq]

Saying “most men are worried about being falsely accused of rape” is like saying most men are afraid of being hit by meteors.

Yes, it might happen, but it’s pretty rare.

[phouka]

@Jragon

Rape, itself, is a primarily female problem. I’ve heard some MRAs conclude otherwise because rape statistics exclude envelopment, or whatever, but I’ve yet to be convinced of that (also, most MRAs are obnoxious). Even if the actual stats are equal, women still have the unique problem of being blamed for their own rapes.

I try not to nitpick posts, because it tends to shut down discussion, but I need to check some things with you.

MRA - multiple regression analysis? I checked on Wikipedia, and that’s the only version of this acronym which fits in the context. (Pretty please, spell it out first, and then use the acronym.)

And then . . . envelopment? Was this the wording in the studies you looked at? Is it perhaps an dialectical variation in legal wording? Because, I’ve got to say, coming at this topic from the point of view of being a woman, a writer, and a former English teacher, that’s about the worst possible word choice for the event in question.

Envelope is an active, transitive verb, and in this specific context, can only mean the vagina (or rectum, or mouth, or what have you) enveloping the penis. It directly implies that the actor in the event is the victim, that the victim’s vagina is enveloping the penis. Can you see why I’m doing a serious look askance at this?

The verb chosen over and over to describe that specific event is “penetration”. The rapist penetrated the victim (with his penis, fingers, or foreign object). I’m not saying women never rape. I’ve read a couple of accounts on this board. However, the ratio of male rapists to female rapists is so skewed, I am comfortable leaving the female singular possessive pronoun out of this.

This has been Quibbling Over Minutiae. Thank you for your time.