Is it wrong to dictate how money you give is spent?

Great Debates
61

But they ARE buying the trip - they’re just getting input from the people actually going on the trip before they book.

I mean, it’s great to buy two all expenses paid tickets to BoraBora for June 14th to 28th and present them to the couple. However, when you find out that the Mrs. can’t get that time off work, and the Mr. is alergic to the flys from BoraBora, and the tickets are non-refundable because you got a supersaver but didn’t realize, suddenly your great gift isn’t very great anymore. In fact, it’s pretty shitty, because Mr. and Mrs feel bad that they can’t go, and you feel like a noob for having spent $15,000 on a gift that will never be used.

See? At all?

62

Yep, pretty much.

“Here, I bought you a trip.”

“Gee, how nice, can’t get that week off work.”

Some gifts are better when people pick them out themselves. Sometimes, because the receiver has expertise that the giver doesn’t have, giving money is easier and preferable to both. You don’t want me buying a transmission job for your car. (“What kind of car is it?” “A blue one!”) I have “mechanic take me” written over my forehead.

Friends of mine went to Greece. His Dad gave them money for the trip. She used to live there. They had some special places they wanted to go. Went over a special period of time. Far easier for her to book the details than for Dad to do so.

If it works for the giver and the receiver, what skin is it off your back?

63

The giver has the right to put any conditions he wants on a gift. And the receiver has the right to refuse the gift and its conditions.

64

Evidently that my post number 55 was written in invisible ink. I’ll repeat: “If you want to buy someone a vacation, tell them: I want to send you to Bora Bora/Bismark, North Dakota for your honeymoon. Let me know when you want to go, and i’ll give you the tickets at your wedding.” I’ve had a trip bought for me this way, and it worked out fine.

65

And once again, I ask… What if you don’t have the time or expertise to personally buy a new transmission for that person? Or what if you live too far away to personally “show up” and foot the bill? There are all sorts of scenarios where you cannot simply pay for the item in kind.

Case in point: I have a friend who breeds English sheepdogs to supplement her meager income. Her breeding stud died last week, and so she had to spend $900+ to buy a new one. She has no savings to speak of, so this was a huge burden on her family.

Mind you, I can’t afford to just buy her a new dog. I could, however, contribute part of this amount. Because the welfare of her children is at stake, I would not want her to blow this amount on booze or pizza. I was willing to dig deep into my pockets for her–but ONLY if she promised to use the money to get a new breeding stud.

So what should a person in my situation do? Refuse to give anything, since I can’t afford to buy them a complete dog? Or just give them the money, knowing full well that they might choose to sacrifice their family’s welfare in the name of almighty booze?

I know that some people here will INSIST that the freedom to spend money however they damn well is non-negotiable. More’s the pity. If people truly believe that this alleged “freedom” is more important than the welfare of one’s children, then that sentiment speaks volumes.

66

BS that is not what you said at all.

67

Actually, that is exactly what he said. Unfortunately, a trip to Bora Bora involves more than just plane tickets and a hotel. Will he be standing there with cash when I need to tip the bellhop? If he is going to pay for the entire trip, some cash is going to need to be exchanged unless we are traveling together. The other option is to pay for the major parts of the trip (or maybe just one part of the trip) and tell me I’ll be responsible for the incidentals.

I tend to agree that giving cash can be crass. It needs to be handled properly. However, sometimes its the best option (my father has been giving my children cash since birth, with a note to tell me what stock to put in their college portfolios). But gifts that obligate me to pay more money also requires a delicate hand.

68

The majority of your “problems” can be solved, by you know, actually interacting with the people you’re trying to ‘save’. What kind of Ford is it? Who usually repairs it? Where’s the nearest dealer? What’s the breeder’s name? Do they take credit cards? No? I’ll send a check. I’ll take care of it.

Your friends don’t REALLY need the money, they need what the money can buy, buy them the item and that solves the problem. This isn’t hard to do, make all the excuses you like…you’re not building the transmission, you’re not breeding the dog; you’re just providing the funds. You don’t need expertise; just a phone and a stamp.

** JThunder** It’s called a check, certified check, or a postal money order or a Walmart Money Order or a Western Union Money Order, written to the breeder, given to your friend, or is that too hard to do in your world as well? What, too much time? Not enough expertise?

Typical passive/aggressive. You cry that you’re willing to safe a family (how noble), but are unwilling to do the bare minimum to ensure that the money goes where you intend it to, in order to save them. You demand promises, when you know you they might not keep them and the results will be what you fear most; but do nothing to make sure that doesn’t happen…but are more than willing to lay the blame when it does.

“I don’t have the expertise, so promise me you won’t spend the money on booze. What, you spent the money on booze, oh well; that’s not my problem, I gave you the money…my conscience is clear, sorry your kids can’t eat…but YOU blew it. I can’t afford to give you anymore.” So not only are you out of money, your relationship is damaged, the kids are in danger AND your friend still doesn’t have a dog…what a waste.

Keep your promises, I don’t want them or need them. We’ve been this road before, but I DO want you have a new dog and I can give you $300 towards it. What’s the breeder’s name and address and I’ll send the breeder the money, you said you have $600, right? Then the dog’s yours. Let me know if you need anything else. The end. DONE.

It’s not that hard to do…but it requires getting involved and being honest; and it actually achieves results. You DO want her to have a dog don’t you? Now she has the dog or did you really want her on bended knee, acknowledging what you did for her…BEFORE you give her the money for the dog?

Hardly being noble is it?

69

Or, holmes & Ravenman, you can just give them the money and expect them to spend it on what you, god forbid, dictate. If they choose to spend it on something else, then THEY are being dishonest. They accepted it for a vacation, they should spend it on a vacation. Remember, the givee has to say “Yes.” at some point.

-Tcat

70

Not an adequate answer. Even if I write a check, I would still have to know that the transaction will be for a breeding stud – as opposed to, say, the breeder’s collection of china dolls or TV guide back issues. I can write as many checks as I want, but that still won’t guarantee that the purchase will be made as expect. In other words, your “solution” is nothing of the sort.

The bottom line is that you are still valuing the much-vaunted “freedom-to-spend-as-one-damn-well-pleases” over such petty, insignificant matters as the family’s well-being or the lives of the children. With those priorities in mind, it’s no wonder that you consider having strings attached as such a monstrously inhuman burden to impose.

71

I see. So if I don’t have enough time to purchase a transmission myself, the logical answer is to invest the time anyway. If I don’t have the expertise to purchase a transmission sensibly, I should interact with the dealers anyway and act as though I knew what I was doing.

Your brilliant “solution” is nothing of the sort.

72

** JThunder** No answer will adequate for you, because you want to play Lady Bountiful and you can only do that, if you hand over the cash personally. You need that rush of seeing your friend on bended knee, promising you. Sad.

If I send a certified check to the breeder and she sends your friend TV guides, what’s to prevent her from doing the same with your cash? Her promise? Is the breeder a thief and liar or is your friend? Which one? Why is more likely that your friend after receiving your cash, doesn’t end up with a collection of TV guides…her promise? What does her promise, have to do with the dealer sending her TV guides? Why is your friend dealing with a dishonest dealer and how does your cash and her promise, get her a dog, when your certified check got her TV guides?

How does your strings, feed her family, when the dealer has stolen her money? It was the dealer that lied and sent her TV guides right? It wasn’t your friend being a grifter, because if it’s your friend, then what good is the word of a grifter?

Why are you better off giving cash to proven liar and thief (you decide which one), than I am actually paying for the thing with a secure and trackable method of payment? I’ll ask again, who’s the thief and liar here…? Your friend or the dealer?

What good does your promise do if one, the other or both are?

73

You’re protecting. What I do value is responsible giving and seeing that, that goal is accomplished. If you can be trusted with money, then here you go. If you can’t, then I do all I can to ensure that, the thing you need is provided. That’s provided you DIDN’T ask me for help and that’s the terms of the OP.

If however, you say, “hey Holmes i need money for a new dog…” then of course that’s where the money should go and I expect that to happen. I don’t need you to promise me. HOWEVER, if I can’t trust you to do that; I will again do all I can to ensure that you receive your dog…because I said that was what I was going to do. You see, Ikeep my promises, even if you don’t or can’t.

Once I involve myself in your life, I have a responsibility to finish and see the job to the end. If I’m not willing to do that, then I shouldn’t get involved at all.

You feel different, that’s fine by me.

74

With a little conversation this problem would go away.

Uncle: “Could I pay for your Honeymoon?”
ToBeWeds ’ Sure"
Uncle “OK, Since you are my only family, I’d like you to have the best honeymoon ever, please accept this check for $15,000 and use it to buy the most wonderful honeymoon you can imagins”

After that the ToBeWeds would be completely wrong to buy a cheap honeymoon and put the rest of the money towards a house downpayment.

or
JT “Can I help you buy a new breeding Dog?”
DogLady “That would be fine”
JT “Here please take this $500, I wish I was able to pay for the dog outright, but my finances just won’t allow it”
DogLady “Great, that means I won’t hae to borrow money from the local lone shark”

Again after this if the DogLady decides to stop being a dog breeder she should offer the money back to JT.

75

Jthunder,

Money is fungible. If your friend buys the dog on credit, and spends the cash on groceries, your gift still went to pay for the dog. You aren’t trying to give a gift; you are trying to control her finances. Perhaps she needs a financial advisor. Fine, pay one, and have him give her professional financial advice. Then she will know the true intent of your gift. She might be offended, but your desire will be met, and by your examples, that is the point of gift giving for you.

Tris

“I have always thought the actions of men the best interpreters of their thoughts.” ~ John Locke ~

76

You’re assuming that she DOES ultimately buy the dog in question. I have no problem with that, and t’s not the situation which we are addressing.

As I explicitly said, what if she decides to blow the money on booze instead? Or what if she decides to splurge on china dolls or TV guide back-issues instead? After all, holmes says that the recipient should use the donation however she damn well pleases, even if it means violating the donor’s intent and jeopardizing the family business.

I’m offering a large monetary gift to help keep food on the family table. This doesn’t mean that I’m trying to control her finances outright. It does mean that I don’t want her to spend my hard-earned money on crack or booze, since the intent was to help ensure the survival of her family.

Is this exercising a measure of control? Perhaps… but that is not the same as “trying to control her finances” in general. At best, it only means exercising control over the hard-earned dollars that I choose to fork over during a time of extreme need.

77

Certainly. No harm there whatsoever; after all, the recipient is simply agreeing to the donor’s conditions. The recipient agrees to use the donated funds in the implicitly promised manner.

However, according to holmes et al, the donor has no business soliciting any promises from the recipient, and that the recipient should use the money however they damned well please – even if it means spending it frivolously. To hell with the donor’s hard work and intent; if the recipient wants to party it away, then so be it!

78

Heavy is the head, that wears the crown.

79

Please tell me that I’m being whooshed. That is exactly what I wrote. Maybe it was in invisible ink!

Tomcat: A gift is an act of kindness. I, personally, do not associate cash with kindness. I would rather shell out my own money AND spend my own time consulting with a friend to arrange a nice vacation for them than to simply plop a check into an envelope, strings attached. I think the former makes a much more thoughtful gift than the latter, which I think is crass.

JThunder: You make good points. If there’s such extraordinary circumstances, then I suppose a bailout with strings on it is the only reasonable thing to do. But I don’t think that the same approach is acceptable under ordinary circumstances.

80

Please tell me that I’m being whooshed. That is exactly what I wrote. Maybe it was in invisible ink!

Tomcat: A gift is an act of kindness. I, personally, do not associate cash with kindness. I would rather shell out my own money AND spend my own time consulting with a friend to arrange a nice vacation for them than to simply plop a check into an envelope, strings attached. I think the former makes a much more thoughtful gift than the latter, which I think is crass.

JThunder: You make good points. If there’s such extraordinary circumstances, then I suppose a bailout with strings on it is the only reasonable thing to do. But I don’t think that the same approach is acceptable under ordinary circumstances.