I’ve noticed this as well. It kind of makes you think they don’t really believe what they say. Why not Kenya or Nigeria? I’ve heard they are poised for massive economic expansion. Or the Middle East? I’m certain these places will receive them with open arms and enthusiastically listen to their complaints once they arrive.
I agree with what you say would have happened if the good people bailed out. But it’s not that simple. Slavery, child labor, disenfranchisement for women, and environmental dystopia would have relied on the strength of the US in doing their harm, and the good people that remained would have been contributing to the strength while unable to control its impact.
There’s a similar argument about the “adults in the room” so often discussed around POTUS. They are, according to reports, trying to help prevent the worst outcomes. They’re the training wheels that reduce the chance of disasters. But in so doing they tend to confer legitimacy and prolong the administration, too. I honestly don’t know whether it’s better. I know many people debate this in their case. I think there’s a similar issue here – thus the dilemma.
I’m not a refugee. I’m white, male, middle aged (or old), American born, English as first language, cisgender, straight, raised culturally Christian (though atheist), college educated, employed, able bodied, born north of the Mason-Dixon, etc etc. I’m all kinds of things that the administration is favoring.
I get the sense that by “refugee” they mean people who cannot safely stay in or return to their nominal country or country of birth, not necessarily people who dislike that others are made unsafe and don’t want to participate in the privileged group.
In many ways, people with privilege can apply it to its own undoing. And I do (this is maybe 30% of my day job). But due to the Electoral College, gerrymandering, and increasingly the courts, this doesn’t apply to the political process.
Better to just stick around and quietly despair. :(
Yeah. I only speak English, and I’ve struggled and failed to learn a lot of other languages. So I’ve only looked at English-language countries. Most of them don’t want me. Some are a lot worse than here.
I like your attitude and wish I had the energy to feel that way myself.
It’s true, the first world countries don’t want a flood of people coming unless we bring skills they need.
I wish I had known this a few decades ago! but in the 20th century, it still seemed like things could get better.
it’s a good thread and the OP has shared some good links. only on the Dope does someone join the conversation just to shake their head.
yes, sadly.
and there is such a thing as a self fulfilling prophecy. The more the good people give up, the more the bad win. I have no doubt there are many more good people than bad - but there are so many that are ignorant they let themselves be led by the bad.
if I won the lottery I would leave and the deciding factor would be healthcare. I don’t want to live somewhere you can go bankrupt from medical bills, regardless of what’s passing for insurance.
When I read about the rise of the Nazis in pre-WWII Germany, back in high school, I always wondered why the average German didn’t just… leave. Well, now I know why- because it’s a death by a thousand cuts. Each change is just incremental-nobody notices them, because they’re so small. It’s only in hindsight that it’s possible to see how much things have changed, how different the country has become.
Me, I moved to Canada almost a year ago. I looked around and saw that things weren’t going to get better, at least not before they got a lot worse. So far, I gotta say it’s looking like I was right. So… yay me?
Obviously, it’s very difficult to just move to another country, so I started actively looking for work in other countries. For about six months, it looked likely that I’d be offered a job in Barcelona, but that fell through. When the job in Canada came up in my searches, I jumped on it. I’m not regretting my decision, but I must admit that I’m not a huge fan of the winter here.
Not me! I’ve thought about a permanent move, but my go-to places are in the Caribbean or possibly Mali. I’m white, I live in a mostly white area, but by and large I do not like white folks.
It’s probably not helpful that I’m reading “The Testaments”, which is the sequel to “The Handmaid’s Tale” which I read maybe a year or two ago.
One of the minor themes has been those who left the United States or “Gilead” for Canada, before things got to the point that people were captive. These expats became some of the resistance operating in Canada and helping rescue refugees. In hindsight, thank goodness they figured out how things were heading and got out when it was safe and easy.
For the record, I’m describing leaving completely, not maintaining US citizenship. Out for a dime, out for a dollar.
Also, I don’t dislike all white folks. Some of my best friends are white.
I’ve though about this. I work from home, so I can do my job pretty much anywhere (with reliable WiFi, that is). I can spit out semi-coherent sentences in Spanish, so there are a number of places where I could go where the language barrier would be a bit lower than it would be in, say, Scandinavia.
Problem is, I’d be leaving behind my family, and I’d either have to leave behind my wife, too, or force her to leave her family. Neither of those things will be happening.
Unless and until I genuinely feel like my life is in danger simply for being on the wrong side, I’m staying.
As for voting, there was a time when Missouri was a swing state. Then the majority of the voters here drank the Trump Kool Aid, rendering my vote useless.
I feel like it would be a slap in the face of my ancestors to leave.
My ancestors suffered from hundreds of years of oppression. Maybe some of the killed themselves, but they made sure to have some babies beforehand. As far as I know, they didn’t hop on the first thing smoking to go back to Africa at the first opportunity. They didn’t run away to Canada. They somehow managed to cope, adapt, and fight.
They paid taxes. Taxes that went towards their own oppression and the oppression of others. But by paying their taxes, they were letting the haters know they would not be moved…that this land is their home the same as anyone else’s. Home not just for them, but for their children and their children’s children.
I’m not about to shit on my ancestor’s sacrifice just because we have a shit gibbon in the White House in this fleeting moment of time. I’m going to stay and continue doing what I can to hold down the fort. Yes, my taxes are supporting evil. But that ain’t nothing new! There has never been a period in this country’s history where our country wasn’t engaged in evil. The only difference is that it’s out in the open. Big whoop.
Napier, you can skedaddle if you want and I won’t judge you none. But keep ethics out of it. It is never unethical for people to stay and fight for their homeland. It might be stupid. It might be crazy. But unethical? Get the fuck outta here with that!! The insinuation is bananas.
There is no where you can run from the US. Even if you are granted citizenship and renounce your US citizenship you still have to deal with the wars, the pollution and the economic policies of the US. I’m sure there are EU members who are not NATO members and that would probably offer you the most insulation.
The only way to get away from the nightmare is to take control of the voting system. That means wealthy liberals on the coasts need to move to low population states that are red. Pennsylvania and Wisconsin should be the first targets but after that picking up ID(1.7), MT(1.1), WY(0.58), ND(0.76), SD(0.88), NE(1.9) would almost guarantee the Republicans never won again. Be one of the 7 million and you’ll make a huge difference in the world. Lots of California’s are already moving to MT and ID though most of them are conservatives getting pushed out.
All of my best friends in the US (save one) are white, but that’s just because I’m drawing from a white pool.
In Saint Martin, my home away from home, all of my best friends (save one) are black. The one white dude is a crazy alcoholic Frenchman who speaks no English, while I speak no French. We laugh, buy each other drinks, and have others translate for us.
True, there’s nowhere you can run from the US. But part of the reason for that is that we all contribute to making the US powerful.
You can definitely run from Russia. Their economy is a bit bigger than the economy of Florida and a bit smaller than the economy of New York. The US is more than an order of magnitude bigger. Russia’s merely an extractive economy (though why Putin sent it this way confuses me, maybe to make it easier for him personally to control). The US has a broad and diverse economy. There’s no way an unstable US won’t make the word unstable, and so forth.
I share some of the responsibility for this, which is at the heart of the problem.
You do make a compelling argument to move to Pennsylvania, though. I live close already. Some of the more appealing areas of Pennsylvania are closer to my workplace than I live now.
I wonder which would be the bigger impact - my voting in Pennsylvania, or my taking my economic activity away?
If I were you, I would move to a place in Southern Europe where I could enjoy the Mediterranean lifestyle and forget all about politics. It’s not worth it. Life is beautiful.
Well, perhaps not to THAT point for everyione, but yes: if you are from here, if you *belong *here, then first duty is to say “No. Not here. Not In My Name”. When and if it does come to be time to retreat because there is no alternative left, then you do so in order to regroup and reconsider what to do next.
Really. It would be empowering to their side. It would be a surrender, exactly what THEY expect – “HAW, HAW, HAW, y’all see that, them pwecious snowflakes never cared 'bout America, when things got hot they done run away”.
Maybe in the end we can’t prevent the ascent of undesirable factions and the imposition of deleterious policies, but at least we can call it out and make them *work *for it. Of course, if we have despaired that it’s inevitable all-the-way full blown fascist takeover time, that’s a different thing. But ISTM we’re not these
Good people who have the means to leaving America will NOT weaken it to the point it can’t inflict harm, unless it’s like a third of the workforce, and who’s going to take them all? Otherwise culling out the best potential opposition will allow greater harm to be inflicted on those good people who can’t help but remain, and make the decisions to cause harm easier to make and apply.
Quite. If the situation becomes intolerable for you or yours, or you perceive that there is an oncoming threat you cannot handle, then by all means do take yourselves to safety. No one should challenge the ethics of such a choice made under such premises.
But, it is not “*the only *ethical choice.” You’re one of the “privileged”, bad things are being done ostensibly on your behalf? You can go be a true ally to those to whom the bad things are being done, who are not privileged and do not have the luxury of quitting the game on their own terms. Make a difference within an arm’s reach, in the lives of those near you. Your blue state vote does not make a difference? Support campaigns in red states. More to the edge of risk tolerance, consider if it’s within your ability and how far you could get away with slow-walking, working-around, undercutting and monkeywrenching the evil policies you can’t prevent or evade.
And for many of those who *were *imminently threatened, who wanted and most needed to get out early… other countries did not want to let them in. To our shame.
Are you sure that’s what brought about the end of the war, rather than the much larger number of Americans who stayed Americans and made clear their objections to it?
Yeah I balked at that too and would like to see some support for that claim.
Yeah I balked at that too and would like to see some support for that claim.
I used to say Ireland. I have dual citizenship so I could conceivably go. But it is now experiencing high crime, worsening economy…so I don’t know. Might stay put.