Love It Or Leave It... OK then, who's paying and where are we supposed to go?

Great Debates
1

I often see Ultra-Nationalist (“Patriotic”) signatures on many forums expressing sentiments along the lines that the USA/Australia/Wherever is the best country on Earth, and if you don’t love it, then don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out.

That may have been a valid sentiment in the 1800s when there was (more or less) no such thing as “Immigration Restrictions” or “Border Controls” and anyone was pretty well free to move wherever they wanted (provided they weren’t a member of whatever the Oppressed Minority du jour happened to be)- but these days, you can’t generally simply front up in another country and decide you feel like living there unless you’ve completed a small rainforest’s worth of paperwork, had enough photos of you taken to cause an increase om the share price of Kodak Eastman, and been subjected to background screenings that would otherwise qualify you for a Field Operative’s position with MI6.

I often get a lot of “Australia’s Gun Laws are Communist-like in nature. You should come and live in the US” from people, too. Ah, were but it that easy.

Unless the US Immigration policy has changed since I last checked, it’s not simply a case of deciding “You know what? I want to live in a country where I can legally own a Machine Gun. Screw you guys, I’m moving to America!”

You need to have some skills (Computer Hacking Skills, Bow Hunting Skills, Ninja Skills… :stuck_out_tongue: ), and engage in a process so tortuous it makes requesting information covered by the Official Secrets Act look like a Library Card application. In short, it’s a lot of hassle.

I imagine it’s the same if you want to move from the US to somewhere else.

Unless you’re a New Zealand Citizen, you can’t simply front up at Kingsford-Smith International Airport in Sydney and announce you’re staying permanently (unless you want to end up being held in a Department of Immigration Detention Centre somewhere, but that’s an unrelated digression), nor can you (assuming you’re not from the EU) simply disembark at London Heathrow and casually mention that Kent is rather nice at this time of year and therefore you shan’t be going back to Minnesota after all. Ever.

Anyway, to try and get myself back on topic: Overlooking the fact that if everyone who objected to the way something was done simply packed up and left, the country would rapidly end up being… well, not very nice, how do the people who want the naysayers to leave propose they actually go about it? Travel isn’t cheap, and there are formalities to go through- especially if the country you want to emigrate to really doesn’t want anyone else moving there, thanks all the same.

Yes, I know the “Love it or leave it” crowd aren’t always rational- but whenever people take that attidude, I tell them that if they cover my airfare, moving expenses, and get me a decent job, I’ll be on the next flight to London or Los Angeles. No-one has ever taken me up on the offer. Yet. :smiley:

2

Well, if someone fronts you in LA, I’ll front you to London :smiley:

While I can’t speak for other countries, the immigration laws in the US are, IMNSHO, second only to the tax laws in their convolutedness.* I am surprised anyone ever gets through.
Yes, I just made that up.

3

I often wonder about what makes a person want to emigrate from one developed country to another. Certainly it’s obvious why an Eritrean might want to move to the U.S., or a Mexican for that matter; it would mean a change by magnitudes in one’s standard of living.

But what makes a person move from Canada, Europe, or the UK to the U.S.? Sure we’re the land of opportunity, but in many ways we have less freedom, culturally, than many other countries. We have a strong Puritan streak that limits nude beaches almost to non-existance, for example. We have less vacation, generally speaking. We have a swim-or-sink philosphy of survival with regard to health care.

What could be so unpleasant about other places to make one move here? Does a Canadian feel less free or more limited in opportunities than an American?

4

The weather.

5

Reminds me of an idea I’ve had for some time- start a Love It Or Leave It Foundation with a website that has two “sides” to it; one side for contributing money to aid people who want to leave the country and the other side for people to apply for help leaving the country with that aid. Forums for both, immigration info, start with the U.S. and expand to other countries eventually. Basically, after the last two presidential elections, I thought of it as a place for people on both sides to put up or shut up.

Maybe someday when I have lots of spare time. And kickstart capital. And the know-how about such things. Yeah, real soon now. :dubious:

6

But “or leave it” is not unreasonable when directed at immigrants, legal or illegal – after all, they can always go home (unless they have reason to fear being arrested there).

7

Sometimes it’s financial opportunties or just to do something different. Basically the same reason someone might move from Massachusettes to New Jersey. If you live in Europe, quite often it is a bit difficult to find a professional job.

8

Our family moved from the U.S. to Montreal for family reasons. (We had extended family there.) Five years later we moved back to the States for the weather, and to get away from the Quebec language laws, which were just beginning to be enacted.

Well, that’s our story in a nutshell.

Ed

9

They’d know you weren’t from Minnesota. We never say “shan’t”.

Re: the OP…maybe there could be a kind of list for the departees like:

Shipment to/Cost:

France / Collect 12 Euros
Somalia / Free
Afghanistan / $20.00
Iraq / $40.00
Chad / $60.00
Uruguay / $100.00
England / $500.00
Australia / $1000.00

Whatever they can afford, that’s where they go.

(Anyone who takes this seriously is a buffoon.)

10

Maybe you just prefer the lifestyle and the culture of another country. Maybe you are in the arts and are inspired by life in another country. Or maybe you meet someone from another country and want to marry.

Austrailia in the late 1960’s wanted to encourage immigrants and I seriously considered moving there. I had found someone who agreed to sponsor me and the Austrailian government was willing to pay me the equivalent of three hundred dollars if I promised to stay for three years.

My 1969 Pontiac LeMans cost $3,500 as a means of comparison for that $300.

I would have had to pay my own way over, but I had arranged passage on a freighter for $500.

I finished school instead.

11

Well, I wouldn’t go so far as all that – no reason they should pay your expenses and find you a job. But I agree, it would be much nicer if immigration laws were simplified. I was turned down for a UK visa; I’m a young, healthy, college-educated, English-speaker with no criminal record and plenty of recommendations. No luck.

As for the person who asked why someone would want to move from one developed nation to another: it’s not so surprising. Once you’re lucky enough to have the bases covered (a stable, safe, healthy, free country) you try to go where you want based on your interests and where you think your opportunities are greatest. Nothing unusual about that.

Some people like the US’s sink-or-swim philosophy, and want to get away from what they think is too much government regulation back home. Some Puritans want to move to a country that limits nude beaches. To each his own. A Canadian friend of mine wanted to break into the movies, and was very frustrated because of what he saw as the limited opportunities at home – he really wanted to move to LA.

12

It’s not that it’s unpleasant, exactly. Just different opportunities and situations.

I know a couple of people, one English and one Australian, who would basically “summer” in England (and make piles of pounds sterling) and “winter” in Oz where they could spend their pounds and enjoy the weather.

I know a Canadian guy with a BA in history who couldn’t get any kind of non-minimum-wage job in Canada, but went to England and got a decent office job right away.

I actually have met a couple of Americans who emigrated to Canada because of their dissatisfaction with recent political circumstances.

I lived in England for a bit just for the fun of it, and I’d consider moving back because of various non-tangible things I like about it, including its proximity to Europe. (Compared to North America, it’s very cheap and easy to travel around Europe.)

13

Not if you have NINJA skills. Then you can cloud the minds of the borders/customs guys so they cannot see you and, once here, support yourself as a unstoppable, indetectable assassin.

14

Why don’t you go to Mexico? Considering how willing they are to export illegal aliens to the U.S., I’m sure they won’t mind accepting a few in return.

15

As someonewho done that three times so far, perhaps I’m qualified to answer.

The first time I did it, I was aged 2, so didn’t have a lot of say in the matter, but my father was moving from Australia to England for a job, and also I suspect because my mother was from England, so she could live closer to her family.

The second time I did it, I was aged 9, so I still didn’t have much say, but again, my father was moving to another job, and perhaps they’d decided that (on the whole) they preferred life in Australia to life in England.

The third time I did it was at age 54 – so it was my choice, though of course I discussed it with my wife and children. Again, it was for a job: I had run out of jobs that fitted my peculiar talents in Australia, and one that did fit came up in the US. But I also thought it would be interesting to live in the US, even though I’ll probably retire back to Australia.

(And so far one of our children is following in parents’ and grandparents’ footsteps, and is living in England on an ancestry visa, while another is thinking about doing the same with her future husband at some time.)

So some of us move from one first-world country to another, partly because of job opportunities, and partly because it’s interesting living in another place.

16

Wasn’t there a 17th or 18th century philosopher who suggested that everyone should be raised completely neutrally on an island until they were old enough to choose the political system they preferred, then move to Liberalland or Fascistland or Anarchistland? Like all good, sensible, logical political suggestions, that one struck me as completely ridiculous and unworkable.

17

This pretty well sums up why our family moved to Australia- NZ was cold, the job market was terrible, and quite frankly, not a lot seemed to be happening there.
In other words, a great place to retire, but not somewhere any of us wanted to continue living.

I’ve thought about the US, but I just don’t think I’d be eligible for a Green Card, my fiancee isn’t good with ultra-cold weather (sets off her asthma), which rules out Canada, and England is expensive, even though I’d love to live there for a few years.

18

Actually, I was an illegal alien in Mexico for over a year, five years ago. Working on a tourist visa (practically as a volunteer, but still not strictly legal). My emplyer and I tried to fix the situation, but were given all kinds of bureaucratic BS by the Mexican immigration authorities. Maybe they wanted a little payback.

19

Unpleasantness had nothing to do with why I moved here. It was simply a matter of knowing what my skills were and going where those skills were wanted.

Granted, unpleasantness back home has played some role in why I choose to stay here.