That is exactly it. Just trying to avoid saying, “Hey you - how about you quit wasting all of our time and say something worth hearing?”
On the day in question, I had had female attys in the 4 preceding cases - whom I presume I alternatively “counselled/ma’amed”, depending on what fell out of my mouth at the moment. I generally am quite conscious of my every word, as I am recorded for an official record. I honestly perceived/intended no difference between counsel and ma’am or sir. The hrgs are not public, so no rep sees how I interact with any other rep. And although I am generally tired at the end of a day of hearings, I did not perceive myself as irritated at all until this rep questioned my use of “ma’am.”
Full disclosure, we tend to have a limited number of attys appear before us regularly. Without question, of the reps whom I respect the most, at least 2/3 are female. Which is especially disproportionate, as well over half the reps are men.
I was raised in Texas, am in my 60s, and I never called my parents “sir” or “ma’am.” That’s not to say I was not polite to them, it just was not something that was done. Just “mom” and “dad” sufficed.
“Reduce” a professional to the level of the person they’re representing? Or a witness that they’re calling to advance their client’s case?
What an odd, hierarchical viewpoint.
Everyone who appears in front of a court should get the same level of respect. I don’t expect the judge to be more polite to me as counsel than to the members of the public who are in court.
I’m there to represent someone, just doing a job. If anyone is to get extra respect, it’s the person who is going to court because they need the court to help them in a stressful event in their life.
I might have been displeased in this context as well. Even if there were not male attorneys being called sir. The title that applies in court is counsel. I would also never call a judge sir or ma’am. It’s your honor. And using ma’am for a lawyer in these circumstances also seems like an unnecessary reference to gender, which can seem like you are sort of taking especial note of it.
I also would not likely have said anything other than to my colleagues later. I actually think you, dinsdale, should be grateful to this attorney for calling it to your attention. You could have just gotten a reputation as someone who calls female counsel ma’am in court. I also would suggest that you may not be consciously aware of whether you do it absolutely equally between men and women, so sticking to “counsel” is a good way to ensure that’s not an issue.
I grew up in New England. The first time I was ma’am’d I was about 18, and I was sort of flattered to be taken as an adult, and not a child.
No, I’m not offended at being called “ma’am”. I’m not saying there aren’t special circumstances where it could be offensive, but in general, no, I take it as the female “sir”.
Well, not in my family. In my family, that would be really weird, and would imply I didn’t want to call her aunt first-name, which is how we address our older relatives.
I saw this discussed on the Facebook page of a nonbinary person. And I’ve tried to get a stranger’s attention often enough that I have some experience, and I can say that people are more likely to turn around and look at me if I say “sir” or “ma’am” than with a bare “excuse me”.
I don’t say, “Pardon me, ma’am, but you dropped your credit card”. I say, “MA’AM! EXCUSE ME, MA’AM!” and wave the card so they can see it if they glance at me. Typically these things happen in noisy crowded train stations and coffee shops, not in quiet places where you are the only other person there.
And my nonbinary friend opined that they would prefer this to losing their credit card, and that was a time when it was okay to misgender a stranger.
It is the respectful female equivalent of “Sir” - but that doesn’t mean they are used equally. If Dinsdale normally refers to lawyers as “Counsel” and none of them have the opportunity to see how he refers to another lawyer, then the woman certainly didn’t see him referring to male attorneys as “Sir”. Now, she probably shouldn’t have assumed that he wouldn’t have - but it does sometimes happen that someone refers to males by name or title but never " Sir" and refers to women by name or job title and sometimes “Ma’am”. I get called “Ma’am” in a lot of contexts by people who do not call my peers “Sir” in the same contexts - and does not come off as respectful. It comes off like someone referring to a “woman doctor” or a “male nurse”, making a point of my gender because it’s not the norm for people in my position.
I don’t have a problem with ma’am. Some might take offense because it implies something about age, but I’m not concerned with maintaining anybody’s vanity.
I’ve been seeing a lot of pushback against lady lately, too. Which baffles me.
You probably didn’t get told to “act like a lady” when that meant “sit still in one of a very few approved positions, keep your voice down, and don’t say anything remotely controversial.”
True, but the episode where she stated that preference also established that “Sir” was regulation. She just told Ensign Kim she preferred Captain, or “Ma’am” in a pinch.
The main time I remember it is Tom Paris saying it with enthusiasm after getting something he wanted. He would say “Yes, Ma’am!”
That’s interesting, because I also call my older relatives “Aunt [Firstname]” and the like, and I wouldn’t consider “ma’am” to be a replacement for that. To me, “Yes, ma’am” replaces just “Yes,” “Yep,” “You bet!” or other affirmative statements.
Statements like “Yes, Aunt Shirley” are more for deference, usually in response to getting in trouble as a kid.
Different dialects. “Yes”, “yep”, “sure”, “okay”, “uh huh” would all be normal, but “yes, ma’am” to my aunt would be weird and would be making some sort of statement.
Hmm - different strokes. At work I get called Sir/Judge/Your honor/Judge Dinsdale pretty interchangeably. In fact, I doubt I even notice the difference between the various addresses - or the lack of any address. I guess I’d prefer any of the above to “Hey you!” or “Dumbass!”
At first it struck me as odd for our office staff to refer to me as Sir/Judge. Then I thought it a sign of respect. Then I decided staff found it easier than remembering my name!
During proceedings, I often find it almost odd when attorneys go out of their way to stand when I enter, or speak in “flowery” language - as an outward show of respect. Whereas the “respect” I am most interested in is a command of the facts and law, and a concise presentation of a cogent theory of their case. It seems that far too often the attorneys who make the most obvious outward shows of respect and formality, are the most eager to waste my time. Appearance over substance.
If you frequently have unrepresented parties in front of you, that’s not surprising. I would expect lawyers to know better. I never speak in “flowery language,” and you not expect that to show respect. I do speak more formally than I might in other contexts – court is not the place to say “n stuff” or “'kay.”
